Avatar d20 fixes

[dman11235]

I thought we agreed that exceed augments would start from where you set the DC....after increase augments?

And yes, this will still matter, because you don't always want to take 10 with them.  You might set the DC a bit lower and then roll to try and get more exceed in there.  That's also how I've been viewing all of the exceed augments.  It's probably why we've come at odds on a few exceed vs increase options.  Also, with getting exceed from the base DC of the seed, what happens when you combine seeds?  What is the base seed DC there?  You'll need to define that.  Also what is the difference between this version and just having it be by BL?  For seeds that are higher base you can just increase the benefit slower, and get the same basic effect.  It also says the same thing as just a BL based augment: based on the bender's power.  Starting them from where the DC is (i.e., after all increases) already addresses various DC increasing factors, and is flavored as extra power in that instance.  As in, you have some extra power left over while using this seed, and it goes here.

This allows every point of your bending skill to be used, at all times, if every seed has an exceed augment.  Well, same thing is technically true with your version, but your version can be construed as BL augments.

[AstralFire]

I thought we agreed that exceed augments would start from where you set the DC....after increase augments?

We did, but I forgot and then built the other three disciplines on the original model instead.

Also, with getting exceed from the base DC of the seed, what happens when you combine seeds?  What is the base seed DC there?  You'll need to define that.

That's actually covered specifically, now. Seed combination (including templates) and quickening raise the base DC, so exceed counts from the new base.

Also what is the difference between this version and just having it be by BL?  For seeds that are higher base you can just increase the benefit slower, and get the same basic effect.  It also says the same thing as just a BL based augment: based on the bender's power.  Starting them from where the DC is (i.e., after all increases) already addresses various DC increasing factors, and is flavored as extra power in that instance.  As in, you have some extra power left over while using this seed, and it goes here.

I don't think there's a lot of difference in the actual flavor representation between the standard BL and that, honestly... They're both representations of power moreso than skill, and each seed doesn't have enough choices for the augments to dramatically alter how they look (especially as some have been simplified, like tentacle/octopus.)

It's different from BL because:
1) Bending skill goes up a lot faster. (Which also allows for finer gradations.)
2) Having two methods of auto-increases means they can be multiplied. The D&D power curve is multiplicative, not linear, and I used a dual-track method with Claw of the Phoenix. Bending Skill also goes up faster at higher levels.
3) It doesn't increase with templates and quickening.

But that is partially why I was against using BL as a method initially, the similarities. Still, Point 2 I've found useful in seed design.

What bothers me about the 'exceed after increase' is mostly that it requires the player to manage an additional pool of augments on every form that behaves exactly as an increase unless there's more than one exceed. Not so much an issue of paperwork (that pool of augments would only be slightly simpler otherwise), it's just that it almost doesn't feel different enough to give it its own terminology and require the tracking. I don't think we can come up with good exceeds for every single seed, we already have issue coming up with enough good increases.

[dman11235]

The difference between BL and exceed (as I have been thinking it works) is that exceed is left over power.  BL is just how powerful a bender you are, period.  Exceed measures how much overkill you do, and puts that into game terms.

1) Bending skill goes up a lot faster. (Which also allows for finer gradations.)

But it's still just a set increase.  You still won't notice the effect of a skill boost between those that happen, you'll still go up linearly with BL.  This is speaking in typical terms, maxing out your skill, as would be normal.

2) Having two methods of auto-increases means they can be multiplied. The D&D power curve is multiplicative, not linear, and I used a dual-track method with Claw of the Phoenix. Bending Skill also goes up faster at higher levels.

Not sure what you mean....unless you plan on multiplying the exceed by the BL augments, and in that case I'm not sure what that gets done.

3) It doesn't increase with templates and quickening.

This is true.

What bothers me about the 'exceed after increase' is mostly that it requires the player to manage an additional pool of augments on every form that behaves exactly as an increase unless there's more than one exceed. Not so much an issue of paperwork (that pool of augments would only be slightly simpler otherwise), it's just that it almost doesn't feel different enough to give it its own terminology and require the tracking. I don't think we can come up with good exceeds for every single seed, we already have issue coming up with enough good increases.

This however is not.  The exceeds will vary with your roll.  The increases will not.  It's the end game that's different.  The exceeds are measuring how much more powerful you are than you need to be.  They allow you to throw the dice and get more benefits than you set, while protecting you from that poor roll.  And exceeds should be nice things to have that just improve the form, but not define it.  So something like reach for Tentacle would be increase because that defines the seed.  Something like some extra HP or str for a golem would be exceed since it doesn't define the seed, but it's a nice thing to have.



I think we both agree that exceeds should stay in some fashion, right?

Okay, let's see where everyone stands on this issue (state your stance and then back it up):

Exceed augments should measure from where you end increasing the DC at.

The flavor is that exceed augments measure how much more powerful you are than you need to be.  Sort of like overkill.  But this puts it into game terms.  They should be nice things that don't define the seed, like more HP for a tentacle or golem, but not extra abilities for a golem or size for a tentacle.  They should also be the things that you don't need to state you want before hand.  Examples: for Move Water you need to actually determine how much water you want to move before you try.  But for Capture, you don't need to determine how hard you want the shell to be to break out of before you go ahead and do it, you just try your best and get what you can.  This applies after you do augments like increasing the size, so the exceed would come into play after this.

[AstralFire]

Not sure what you mean....unless you plan on multiplying the exceed by the BL augments, and in that case I'm not sure what that gets done.

That's exactly what I mean. It allows for Claw of the Phoenix to be gotten relatively early in a non-canon game by having BL set number of dice and exceed roll set size of dice, so it's keeping up better with the addition of iterative attacks.

I think I've already set out my points for why I think the 'exceed from base DC' should be used. (I'll refer to this as System Alpha.) The 'exceed after increase' (System One. Put together the two systems make a great steak sauce) feels too much like a mechanic repetition to me - how is overkill power as increase substantially different, mechanically, than focusing on overkill power from System One? I think most people will still end up taking 10 in most situations for both speed and reliability, since the extra damage from an exceed can be crucial.

[dman11235]

Curse you and your making me like your system!

I'd still like to get more weigh-ins though.

So your system: has the damage-type things scale almost exponentially, artificially so.

I actually really like that idea.  Lets see if we can make it work perfectly.

[AstralFire]

Well, I'm sure someone like aftercrescent can come in here with some good commentary. Your system is still a good one, I have a lot of trouble when you disagree with me because you have a lot of good points and ideas. That is a good thing. Avoids groupthink.

[AfterCrescent]

I heard my name.
I'll try to get to this tonight. If not, I'll do it tomorrow.

[AfterCrescent]

Okay, so I haven't had the time I want to go through the pdf like I want. (I'm a bit OCD, so I go through it start to finish, hence my last comment about the Kinetic Grace ability )

I'm going to get to it, I promise. I actually got one of my friends who loves the concept for this to sign up for the forums, so eventually she may contribute something to this. (*crosses fingers*)

Okay, so here's my initial thought on bloodbending. Earth benders are supposed to be able to bend earth in a natural state (Toph bends metal as a refined, but still natural state). I guess the best analogy I can think of is X-men 2. Magneto can't use the iron in the guard's blood because there's not enough of it at first. Same with Fire, Air, and Earth. People, however, are mostly composed of water, so blood bending doesn't control them so much as control the water. That's why the movement of the person, at least in the show, is odd and unnatural. I think the avatar can bend people, but other than that I would limit it to waterbending, and powerful waterbenders at that. Just my two cents.

I mean I know it's simple and a bit basic, but I like the idea of Bloodbending as waterbending PrC. Dai-Li as an earthbending PrC. Combustion man as a firebending PrC, etc. Not sure about airbending right now, but I'll comment if something comes to mind.

Okay, so that covers all the old topics, now about this increase/exceed business... Honestly, I'm confused. Can either of you clarify it a bit?  From what I'm gathering it looks like this.

Bending Seed 1 has DC XX
I quicken it (+10) and increase it (+Y). Add in +4 for my augments that round (the +4 could be a misunderstanding, so just let me know).

Now let's say I roll a 45 on my check and the DC I set was 40. Under "System One" we use the DC of 26, right? (Without the +10 for quicken and the +4 for augmenting), so I have an exceed pool of 19. Under System Alpha, we might be using the base DC of, say, 20. So with System Alpha my exceed pool is +6 higher (25). Right?

Sorry if it's overtly simplistic, but putting numbers, even basic ones like this, to the discussion helps me see the difference.

[AstralFire]

The +4 only crops up if you change a form from its original augments on a subsequent round of its duration.

System One:
DC 10 Seed, +12 points worth of augments, you get an exceed benefit every 2 points. DC is 22. You roll a 26.
You get your 12 points of augments, and 2 ranks (4 points) of the exceed benefit.

System Alpha:
DC 10 Seed, +12 points worth of augments, you get an exceed benefit every 2 points. DC is 22. You roll a 26.
You get your 12 points of augments, and 8 ranks (16 points) of the exceed benefit.

[AfterCrescent]

Ah, much clearer. Thanks

System Alpha, honestly, seems to be the one that shows the strength of a bender above and beyond what is needed. So yeah, that's my vote.

[AstralFire]

New forms added to fire and air: Lifebend and Breathstealer, as promised earlier. Also, made an augment for Boulder Toss so it can be an area attack. I opted for working it more like 'twinning' than 'ginormous boulder' to keep the attack type consistent. I'll go back and examine all augments thoroughly for balance after we decide if we're using One or Alpha.

[dman11235]

I just realized a side affect of my system!

For something like Capture this makes the most sense as I say it: So with Capture, if the DC is decided from Exceed, then with my system it will be easier to contain smaller creatures, since you won't need to increase the size of the sphere.  This makes sense to me, that you'd have an easier time containing smaller creatures in it.

So.  That's AF and AC for system Alpha, and me for system One.  Look for more tomorrow, I hope to have this settled then.

[AfterCrescent]

I'm not following you dman.

Capture has a base DC of 30. Let's augment it by increasing the reflex save (+5). Now we've got a Base DC of 35 under System One. If you roll a 36, you don't exceed at all under System One. Under System Alpha you still have a base DC of 30 and augment it (+5), but when you roll a 36 you have one exceed benefit available.

Am I missing something?

[dman11235]

The fact that Capture might not have an augment allowing larger creatures?  And the fact that I thought the reflex save DC would be exceed and not increase?

[AfterCrescent]

Okay.... I see where you're going with this, dman. And I like it.

It switched the increase/exceed augments for Capture, but it makes it more logical. Hrm. Now I'm not sure which system works better...

I need to get on the ball and read everything now so I have more seeds to compare to when making my vote. >.>

[dman11235]

Yeah, that's my dilemma.  They're both good.

[AfterCrescent]

Well with capture they both work, it's just a matter of which augment is an increase and which is an exceed. Maybe that's the case with all the seeds. It'll work, the seeds may just need minor revisions depending on the system.

[dman11235]

Right, and the question is which system to use.  Both actually do have some minor quirks about them, so they do act differently.

[AstralFire]

I am generally in favor of nixing the bit about declaring either exceed or increase beforehand if we go with Alpha. The only time I think most people would be willing to chance form failure would be when it's all or nothing, and in such a situation they'll likely overbend anyways to get maximum effect. Risking form failure due to stacking too many augments would be like letting someone get a +1 caster level for 10-15% Arcane Spell Failure and it only works with somatic components. It would almost never get used in combat since it risks wasting your entire turn.

[Zuki]

<Post redacted because I don't have the ability to delete posts yet, but still wanted the thread to bump. Please disregard.>