What Counts as "Longbow"?

[kevin_video]

With this logic a Ford drives *completely* differently than a Chevy. No similarity *at all*...

Or a pen with blue ink *must* use special paper that a pen with black ink *can't* use...

As sad as that is, I'd probably say that he'd agree with that, yeah.

[DaveoftheRave]

@ DaveoftheRave -- He's not trying to accomplish anything with the rule, he just has his own rules, and way of thinking. His reasoning is, is that they're different as stated above. That you couldn't possibly use both accurately because of how different they are.

Then all he is accomplishing with the rule (and seemingly all/most of his houserules) is to make the game less enjoyable for you and the other players.

So it is a bad rule.

My houserule on Weapon Focus is that it counts for all of the weapons you are proficient with.  Otherwise you essentially lose proficiency in all other weapons.  It also doesn't even increase the power, it just gives you more options which is a good thing.

[Prak, the Mad]

man that sucks. It's never fun having to cut ties with friends.

What about seeing if someone else in the group wants to run a game?

[kevin_video]

man that sucks. It's never fun having to cut ties with friends.

What about seeing if someone else in the group wants to run a game?

The guy the used to DM is retired, and just wants to play. Apparently he was always the DM, and got tired of it. I can understand that. Sometimes you want to be on the other side of things, enjoying it with the rest of the group instead of having to come up with things to attack them with. The youngest of the group is just that, the youngest. He's also the most busiest out of all of us with full time school (which means fun exams), and a job. The guy that's currently our cleric, works double shifts sometimes, and isn't looking to DM anyways. He's not a storytelling kind of person. I used to be a GM, but I couldn't handle these guys. They're too randomly chaotic. Just like their characters.

[jamestguy]

Yeah I'd say quit. Also seconding the city name, I need a game for the summer when I get home from college.

[kevin_video]

Yeah I'd say quit. Also seconding the city name, I need a game for the summer when I get home from college.

I don't even know if I'm in the same country. Brandon, Manitoba, Canada.

[jamestguy]

I don't even know if I'm in the same country. Brandon, Manitoba, Canada.

Yeah that's a bit far from Colorado, USA. Oh, to have a private jet. From what I've seen on the internet, though, the world lives in Canada, so there's still hope.

But seriously, I'd take play-by-post over nonsensical make-the-game-worse houserules. No fun (quitting) is better than unfun (the game), and mild amusement (pbp or World of Warcraft) beats them both.

[ZeroSpace]

Brandon Manitoba? Damn that's out in the boonies. And here I thought I had troubles finding a game.

Sadly, you're a little to distant to let you play in my games, since I'm about 3 provinces west of you. That said, I second the suggestion of PbP. It's kinda sluggish compared to PnP, but better than the alternative.

[AlterFrom]

There's also the option of using a Virtual TableTop. Speedier than PbP, but it comes with its own set of hassles (and rewards).

[Mushroom Ninja]

With this logic a Ford drives *completely* differently than a Chevy. No similarity *at all*...

Or a pen with blue ink *must* use special paper that a pen with black ink *can't* use...

As sad as that is, I'd probably say that he'd agree with that, yeah.

Yikes, that's tough.  Any chance in getting him to OK Weapon Group Proficiencies?

[kevin_video]

With this logic a Ford drives *completely* differently than a Chevy. No similarity *at all*...

Or a pen with blue ink *must* use special paper that a pen with black ink *can't* use...

As sad as that is, I'd probably say that he'd agree with that, yeah.

Yikes, that's tough.  Any chance in getting him to OK Weapon Group Proficiencies?

I'm hoping so, yeah, but I'm definitely not holding my breath on that one.

[Tetsubo]

From the SRD:

"Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats."

Elves are skilled in both the traditional longbow, a self-bow and the composite bow. They use entirely different methods of construction and they shoot quite a bit different. A composite bow can in fact be 'tuned' during construction to have a number of different final characteristics. This difference, between a standard longbow and a composite longbow, would be no different than the difference between a longbow and an aquatic longbow. If an Elf can effectively ignore the difference between a self-bow and a composite bow, the difference between a longbow and an aquatic longbow would be trivial.

Shove that into your GM's pipe and have him smoke it.

This twit has annoyed me...

[TheWordSlinger]

From the SRD:

"Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats."

Elves are skilled in both the traditional longbow, a self-bow and the composite bow. They use entirely different methods of construction and they shoot quite a bit different. A composite bow can in fact be 'tuned' during construction to have a number of different final characteristics. This difference, between a standard longbow and a composite longbow, would be no different than the difference between a longbow and an aquatic longbow. If an Elf can effectively ignore the difference between a self-bow and a composite bow, the difference between a longbow and an aquatic longbow would be trivial.

Shove that into your GM's pipe and have him smoke it.

This twit has annoyed me...

I'll need some clarification from KV before I weigh in on this. Is your DM making you get a separate [Weapon Specific Feat of your choice] for Longbow and Aquatic Longbow for above water uses? If this is the case, then I'd be in the agreement with the majority. However, once you try to use that longbow under water, it becomes a horse of a different color.
Also, as far as Tetsubo's response goes, I'd have to disagree. By your logic, using a rapier is no different from using a shortbow. Just because a race trains with two different weapons does not mean that those two weapons have any similarities.

[kevin_video]

I'll need some clarification from KV before I weigh in on this. Is your DM making you get a separate [Weapon Specific Feat of your choice] for Longbow and Aquatic Longbow for above water uses?

Yes he is. Weapon Focus (Aquatic Longbow), and Weapon Focus (Elvencraft Longbow).

[Prime32]

From the SRD:

"Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats."

Elves are skilled in both the traditional longbow, a self-bow and the composite bow. They use entirely different methods of construction and they shoot quite a bit different. A composite bow can in fact be 'tuned' during construction to have a number of different final characteristics. This difference, between a standard longbow and a composite longbow, would be no different than the difference between a longbow and an aquatic longbow. If an Elf can effectively ignore the difference between a self-bow and a composite bow, the difference between a longbow and an aquatic longbow would be trivial.

Shove that into your GM's pipe and have him smoke it.

This twit has annoyed me...

I'll need some clarification from KV before I weigh in on this. Is your DM making you get a separate [Weapon Specific Feat of your choice] for Longbow and Aquatic Longbow for above water uses? If this is the case, then I'd be in the agreement with the majority. However, once you try to use that longbow under water, it becomes a horse of a different color.
Also, as far as Tetsubo's response goes, I'd have to disagree. By your logic, using a rapier is no different from using a shortbow. Just because a race trains with two different weapons does not mean that those two weapons have any similarities.

See, that's not how I viewed it. The important text states that longbows include composite longbows, and implies this as the norm. If longbows include composite longbows, why don't they include aquatic longbows?

[kevin_video]

Because, according to the DM, the aquatic longbow is a new bow proficiency that the aquatic elf automatically gets. Separate proficency, separate weapon focus tree.

[Tetsubo]

From the SRD:

"Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats."

Elves are skilled in both the traditional longbow, a self-bow and the composite bow. They use entirely different methods of construction and they shoot quite a bit different. A composite bow can in fact be 'tuned' during construction to have a number of different final characteristics. This difference, between a standard longbow and a composite longbow, would be no different than the difference between a longbow and an aquatic longbow. If an Elf can effectively ignore the difference between a self-bow and a composite bow, the difference between a longbow and an aquatic longbow would be trivial.

Shove that into your GM's pipe and have him smoke it.

This twit has annoyed me...

I'll need some clarification from KV before I weigh in on this. Is your DM making you get a separate [Weapon Specific Feat of your choice] for Longbow and Aquatic Longbow for above water uses? If this is the case, then I'd be in the agreement with the majority. However, once you try to use that longbow under water, it becomes a horse of a different color.
Also, as far as Tetsubo's response goes, I'd have to disagree. By your logic, using a rapier is no different from using a shortbow. Just because a race trains with two different weapons does not mean that those two weapons have any similarities.

But the longbow and the composite longbow are listed as essentially *being* the same weapon for an Elf. The shortbow and rapier are list as separate items. Apples to oranges.

[TheWordSlinger]

From the SRD:

"Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats."

Elves are skilled in both the traditional longbow, a self-bow and the composite bow. They use entirely different methods of construction and they shoot quite a bit different. A composite bow can in fact be 'tuned' during construction to have a number of different final characteristics. This difference, between a standard longbow and a composite longbow, would be no different than the difference between a longbow and an aquatic longbow. If an Elf can effectively ignore the difference between a self-bow and a composite bow, the difference between a longbow and an aquatic longbow would be trivial.

Shove that into your GM's pipe and have him smoke it.

This twit has annoyed me...

I'll need some clarification from KV before I weigh in on this. Is your DM making you get a separate [Weapon Specific Feat of your choice] for Longbow and Aquatic Longbow for above water uses? If this is the case, then I'd be in the agreement with the majority. However, once you try to use that longbow under water, it becomes a horse of a different color.
Also, as far as Tetsubo's response goes, I'd have to disagree. By your logic, using a rapier is no different from using a shortbow. Just because a race trains with two different weapons does not mean that those two weapons have any similarities.

But the longbow and the composite longbow are listed as essentially *being* the same weapon for an Elf. The shortbow and rapier are list as separate items. Apples to oranges.

No, the longbow and composite longbow are both listed as weapons that an elf has received rudimentary training with. When an elf takes Weapon Focus (Longbow), does he receive the +1 to hit when using a composite longbow?

[AfterCrescent]

No, the longbow and composite longbow are both listed as weapons that an elf has received rudimentary training with. When an elf takes Weapon Focus (Longbow), does he receive the +1 to hit when using a composite longbow?

Yes. Yes he does.

For purposes of weapon proficiency and similar feats, a composite longbow is treated as if it were a longbow.

[TheWordSlinger]

No, the longbow and composite longbow are both listed as weapons that an elf has received rudimentary training with. When an elf takes Weapon Focus (Longbow), does he receive the +1 to hit when using a composite longbow?

Yes. Yes he does.

For purposes of weapon proficiency and similar feats, a composite longbow is treated as if it were a longbow.

Huh, I stand corrected should probably actually read the 3.5 weapon section sometime...
However, I still maintain that it's not completely unreasonable to require separate weapon feats for using an Aquatic Longbow to fire sea arrows underwater.