Erudite is a shitty class

[dark_samuari]

And a Sorcerer has better PrCs, feats, and can easily end up with a Sorcerer progression equal to the Erudite but at greater CL using just Races of the Dragon and it's web site. Bonus feats aren't impressive when every Sorcerer can dip PrCs with bonus feats, or even go Incantatrix. "All" isn't better than 3 in most situations, so I'm not terribly impressed. Without infinite Power points an Erudite is just a more versatile less powerful caster. About on par with the Sorcerer.

I'm failing to see why anyone would pick a Sorcerer over an Erudite by the sheer comparison that one of them may be a little bit more powerful but the other is more versatile in every imaginable way. I mean if we went up to players who knew perhaps a minimal amount of optimization I believe they'd go for the guy who can do the other guy's job and do a psion's job as well.

Yes, and the Core Sorcerer trick is better than any Erudite trick, so

How? Prove it.

Body Outside Body is a joke that doesn't even work by the rules, much less with a DM playing Psionic Transparency.

I don't see where you're getting that from. You may not be able to have your clone manifest powers but they still retain their power point reserve to which you may always gain by fusion.

[The Lurker]

I hope I'm getting this right. Lurker made a rant about the Erudite being a poor class. His arguments supporting this range from 'ban some cheese', 'Erudite's don't have shapechange (aka cheese when you get down to it)', and 'you already know all the good powers and spells by playing... Umm... a cerebrumancer! So power and spell swapping per day is dumb'.

If another class can do it without the weakness your class comes with, your class is weaker.  Cerebromancers and sorcerers don't have to deal with being a completely worthless class for at least the first twelve levels of play, thus it is in fact a valid argument to say "But the erudite isn't alone in being able to do X".  Unless there is something that is actually exclusive, there is no reason that the Erudite should ever see play.

To that I'll point here
For example, a sorcerer can solo an entire campaign is on the same teir as a psion for the same reasons. The wizard is considered to be on a higher teir due to the versatility in having all arcane spells, following the same exact lines of thought with the same points the Erudite is teired in higher than the psion due to having all psionic powers, and also all arcane spells. If you really wish to argue either the Erudite/Wizard being higher teired than the Sorcerer/Psion classes you should take your opinions to JaronK's thread.

As I've already stated, JaronK is retarded.  There is an argument for having access to all spells being powerful (because there are so many fucking good spells).  Tell me you actually would ever use any fifth level power besides anticipatory strike, true seeing, or psychic crush.  Seriously, try to argue that shatter mind blank or Ectoplasmic Shambler is worth an action ever.

Really, having access to all psionic powers isn't a big deal when the ones you'd actually bother to use an action one are all known by an equal level psion.

If you wish to argue an Erudite's capabilities are not close to a Wizards', Clerics', Druids', Archivists', or Artificers' capabilities then this thread has some purpose after all. Which I'll take the time to address some of those things now.

1. Cheese.
You're quick to say an Erudite learning devine spells from a character with levels any of the vast number of PrCs that grant divine spells is cheese. And try to ignore it. On the same token, casting gate to summon a CR 40 monster to fight for you, granting your self extra surprise rounds via Shapechange Dire turtle, shapechanging into a Solar for divine spells, casting genesis and creating a fast time plane to hide in, slapping 4 metamagic effects together to nuke the planet, and many many other examples are all worse. You cannot use DM fait to block an Erudite from contacting one person in game with levels one of dozen or so PrCs yet uphold an anything goes for another class. Even trying to do so is to fail before you even click on post.

If all cheese is allowed, then the Erudite wins by default theoretically since they can repeat any given day multiple times giving them the exact knowledge of every action his opponent wizard will do. There is always a way to beat something, and the Erudite can always find it.

And if lots of cheese is allowed, all the actual tier 1s broke the game 2 levels before the erudite did and we don't give a shit because he gets access to the broken stuff at the same rate as somebody's cohort.

Also, I think I'll have to dig for Body Outside A Body's text. If the clones still have PP an Erudite can simply use Fusion for yet another option for unlimited PP. Differently worth looking into.

2. PrCs.
Erudite 5 / PrCone 4 / PRCtwo 4 / PrCthree 4 / PrCfour 1 / PrCone +2 is perfectly fine with no theoretical loss at all and you can also use retraining on a Erudite 17 build to take ten PrC levels as well. So what if the abilities granted by the Incantratix and Shadowcraft Mage PrCs are better than the few psionic PrCs printed. 99% of the comments spoken of those two classes falls directly into game breaking material. It's like trying to say the 9mm Glock carried by law enforcement is a piss poor weapon because we have invented a tank.

Anarchic initiate is the only full ML PrC for psionics that doesn't require loss of manifesting to get into outside of third party.

So, yeah.  We DO care that the Erudite per RAW can't stack on PrC levels, because each erudite level taken makes learning powers cost even more xp (meaning the wizard in your party is even FURTHER ahead of you in getting access to broken crap).

3. Powers per round.
You explicitly mention a wizard burning two of three daily uses of a 170,000gp rod to quicken two spells (can only be done once per day) and shapechange from a 3.0 monster to cast four spells in a single given turn. However, with Overchannel and Schism the Erudite can take about 22 damage to manifest two 9th level powers in a round as often as they want and they still can add quicken power for more. This of course means the Erudite can pump out up six 9th level powers by taking about a quarter of his HP in damage by round two and the wizard casts his 7th using his last daily charge but quickly falls behind in the following rounds after that. Assuming of course the wizard actually has enough 9th level slots to try and keep up with the nova effects psionics has. Add in one of the many ways to net unlimited PP and an Erudite easily holds his own in the second tier while still maintaining the massive versatility trait only found in first teir.

See above about why we don't actually care about doing stuff two levels later.

One argument you may have against this is the low HP nature of using overchannel, but at the 20th level PC vs PC having 170 or 126 HP won't make a difference and psionics also comes with fast healing powers. Even novaing like that for three rounds per day puts you ahead of a wizard. And to seal the coffin, the psionic version of Time Stop can be accessed five levels earlier than the spell version letting you have even more actions in a standard round. The Erudite having Arcane Fusion and Linked Power can also kick in if you stop looking at the highest level you have access to.

Again, nobody cares.  Either a psion can do it better, or a wizard can do it better.  Unless you actually use the features exclusive to the Erudite, you aren't making an argument.

4. Arcane Fusion.
Yes a wizard recaster could learn Greater Arcane Fusion for example. It requires a certain race, being the 17th level, taking two levels in a certain PrC. The benefit is the wizard can cast any wizard spell.

Niche case.  Nobody cares because nobody actually drops CLs on recaster when they can just cheat access to it with fiend blooded or similar.

In any case, you're just making it harder to believe that the Erudite is actually impressive compared to a wizard.

The Erudite can learn Greater Arcane Fusion from any sorcerer (who's dumb enough not to learn it?) a level earlier with no small print in costs. The benefit is being able to cast any arcane spell (wizard, sorcerer, assassin, bard, etc.), any psionic power, and any divine spell (cleric, druid, ranger) at it's full potential. Arcane Fusion is just that good when used by an Erudite.

Only the powers you spend xp to learn.  It's a VERY big limitation.  And really, arcane fusion isn't that impressive because it's still tossing out lower than max level effects.

5. Clerics can cast 9th level powers?
I didn't know that. You should try raising awareness of that kernel of knowledge, and naming the class and the book it's in so I can read about it would be a great start I think. I only know the Arcane>Divine thing. I'm pretty sure (Arcane+Powers)>(Divine+Powers) but the whole 9th level power access to any discipline (they get that right?) thing may alter things abit.

http://www.candlekeep.com/library/articles/leof_msoa.htm

It's kind of a shitty PrC, but yeah.

Yes the Erudite don't make a better spellcaster than a real spellcaster. Ironically, I expected that... But that don't mean the Erudite isn't a strong class.

Read more than the title.  It's a shitty class until arcane fusion, and still a subpar class after that assuming limited cheese.  And if you assume unlimited cheese, real casters got every spell you can cast two levels earlier at least so we still don't care.

[The Lurker]

Lurker: Erudites get Divine spells the same way Archivists get Arcane spells. They cheat the system.

If a Sorcerer or Wizard takes Arcane Disciple, the Erudite can leech spells from that domain. Divine Power and Righteous Might are both Domain spells as of the Spell Compendium and PHB. What advantage does the Erudite have over the Sor/Wiz when it comes to casting Divine spells? No need for a Wisdom score to cast those Divine spells.


Not satisfied? Recaster and Wyrm Wizard, Advanced Learning, and a few other abilities turn spells from any spell list into Arcane spells. Theoretically, every spell has been converted all ready, you just need to find it.


Lastly, the Erudite is capable of researching new powers using the rules on page 95 of the XPH. Unlike the Psion, the Erudite has no upward limit on this research (researching a new power as a Psion takes one of your powers known). There's a RAW method of adding new powers to your list.

And none of this is as good as getting those effects two levels earlier, which the Erudite can't do.

[The Lurker]

[spoiler]
Okay, I'm going to start slow on this, how you might on a chick that prides herself on being frigid. [Gregory BM mode on]

First: of the propriety of shitty words and whatnot. "Dude, you swear way too much" isn't an argument. And it sure as fuck doesn't invalidate any others. It's an observation that doesn't really add anything to the subject, much less bring the discussion to an end. Saying "I'm not even going to dignify that with a response", for example, is about the most passive-agressive little cuntry of an answer someone could possibly come up with, and I hate whoever invented the expression, because it sounds witty, but all it really equates to is "You see, I'm too good for this, so I'm just going to take a leak over there, confident that I had the last word in this and I win and you lose, haha". So, with that mentioned, the LESS we talk about that, the sooner we'll get somewhere.

Second: of the flexibility of metapsionics versus metamagic. It's not very hard to look at how they both compare. One uses a point-based system (whose only limiting factor is ML and amount of PP to spend, though the second isn't a problem since Psycarnum infusion effectively gives you infinite fucking power points) while the other uses a fixed slot system. Oh, have I mentioned that you can't "recharge" spell slots by any means, and that metamagic cost reduction is a lot harder to achieve than jacking up ML?

That's the sound of an argument hitting Fighter's impermeable brain.

Third: of the alleged shittiness of an Erudite. Lurker suggests that there's nothing an Erudite can do with arcane fusion that a Sorcerer can't do. SiFir mantains that an Erudite can cast ANY spell via Arcane Fusion by means of metapsionics and having a pretty big book.

Since I dislike playing favorites, I'd go with Lurker's theory for a moment... except it's wrong. SiFir has a point that he has yet to contest and it's a big enough point that makes his penis shrink into a knot and cry itself into a corner because it is an unanalyzable dot in 3D space by comparison.

See, this is being a dick without the crutch of a swear word to prove you're 'cool'. And contrary to what your moms may have taught you, being respectful only earns you anything when there's a point to being polite. It's just as unlikely that someone starts being a prick when you act nice to them as the other way around - and it's even less likely that someone starts acting polite towards you, because you asked them to do it after they started talking like a sailor and you called them on it.

[/Gregory BM mode off]

Don't make me do this again. The bitterness it takes to write like this makes my blood become too acid for anything to live in it.
[/spoiler]

Post an actual build that can do that, and I'll go point by point over why it's shit.

[Kuroimaken]

I'd actually rather not have anything to do with this thread anymore, but I forget how to unsubscribe.

Seriously, I don't see the two sides getting anywhere near a compromise, anytime soon. Or EVER.

[The Lurker]

A) As we have already established, Erudites, too, have access to Chronotyryn shapechange.

No, they DON'T.  You need to know tenth level powers to learn a ninth level spell.  You literally cannot get shapechange on an erudite pre-epic.

Points B and C have already been addressed.

[The Lurker]

And that's pretty much it for arguments over the past four pages.  I was at a wedding, so didn't have net access for the past couple of days.

[dark_samuari]

But Lurker, this thread isn't about if the Erudite is stronger than the Wizard. It's if the Erudite is a powerful class.

Perhaps a visual aid is in order to help demonstrate what your argument appears like?

[spoiler]
This isn't more powerful than this is:

Because it isn't more powerful than this:
[/spoiler]

I mean, that's what you've been arguing...

As I've already stated, JaronK is retarded.

And I would in addition request you cease using ad hominem within your arguments.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Well, given how crappy the early M16s were...

[KellKheraptis]

First of all, it was already addressed how to achieve 9th level Arcane spells with an Erudite pre-epic.  That particular one has more than one method even.  Also, for the record...I'll take the M1 Garand anyday >.>  One shot, one kill ftw. ~End UT Rant~

[Kaelik]

I'm failing to see why anyone would pick a Sorcerer over an Erudite by the sheer comparison that one of them may be a little bit more powerful but the other is more versatile in every imaginable way. I mean if we went up to players who knew perhaps a minimal amount of optimization I believe they'd go for the guy who can do the other guy's job and do a psion's job as well.

Okay, let's assume the Erudite doesn't have infinite Power points because the Sorcerer can do that too, as below, and no retraining, because again, Sorcerers have all spells on their list known under that rule.

You have an Erudite with Spell to power. Compared to a Sorcerer.

Level 1-10, The Erudite sucks, because he can't even cast Arcane Fusion. Sorcerer has more spells that he can cast in a day, and they are better and more diverse. He also has the ability to be a damage class without sucking, if that's important. He also gets access to good spells a level before the Erudite. He also doesn't have to spend XP to get spells.

Level 11: Arcane Fusion. He has a shitty level 6 power he's not going to use, but he wins at level 1-4 and 6. Clear win.

Level 12:

Erudite wins level 1-4 in versatility wars, has the same number of level 5 and 6 spells. But worse level 6 ones. XP.

Level 13:

Erudite has more spells known of levels 0-4. He can use all his unique powers as level 5 and 6 and 7 powers, but his level 7 powers Aren't very good. He must spend XP for good level 5 and 6 powers now.

level 14:

Sorcerer now has level 7 spell that is better than whatever the Erudite is casting. Still has just as good and about as many spells of level 5 and 6, he also has all the good 1-4 spells, so maybe once or twice a day the Erudite pulls out something cool. The rest of the time, the Sorcerer is better.

Level 15-16: Repeat levels 13 and 14, except the range of spells that the Sorcerer is better at is larger, it's now 4 spell levels, that he has more spells known, to counteract the 4 spell levels the Erudite has on him. Except his are all higher level.

Level 17: Greater Arcane Fusion. Now the Sorcerer has better 8th level spells, but no 9th, and the Erudite is better at 7 and below. First clear win for the Erudite since level 11.

Level 18-20: Sorcerer may have worse level 1-7 versatility, but he counters that with much better level 9 spells.

And that's not counting the PrC advantage or feats or anything.

The Erudite straight loses levels 1-10 without even comparing favorably to Tier 3 classes, then he finally gets to be a real class, except he's always a level behind the Sorcerer in good spells (which is a travesty since the Sorcerer is already behind).

I was nice here, if I made the Sorcerer a Kobold, the Erudite loses both his clear wins to murky maybes and is clearly losing every level except 11 and 17.

The question is: Which occurs more often as a level 14 spellcaster:

"Man I really wish I could cast Knock right now."

"I only have Decerebrate and Insanity. I sure wish I had Avasculate or Stun Ray."

EDIT: You are also choosing to be a class that get's good spells a level later and spends large amounts of XP to even know those spells. You are going to be 2 levels from getting Fleshshiver when a shitty Sorcerer suffering from Skip Williams disease get's it. 3 Levels away when a Kobold Sorcerer does.

How? Prove it.

Sorcerer is in combat at level 12, he blew a feat on Arcane Disciple because this trick is so good. He blows all his level 6 slots. He then uses a level 5 slot to Planeshift to a Timeless plane where he rests for 8 hours, then gets his spells back, he uses a level 5 slot to Plane shift back, then he teleports if/when he needs to. 3 seconds after his disappearance he reappears with a full complement of level 6 spells. He repeats this as necessary.

[lans]

*Raises hand*How does an erudite even use arcane Fusion? He doesn't have any sorcerer spells known. He has power versions of sorcerer spells, but I think they are different from sorcerer spells. Or is this one of those weird rules things.

[The Lurker]

But Lurker, this thread isn't about if the Erudite is stronger than the Wizard. It's if the Erudite is a powerful class.

Perhaps a visual aid is in order to help demonstrate what your argument appears like?

[spoiler]
This isn't more powerful than this is:

Because it isn't more powerful than this:
[/spoiler]

I mean, that's what you've been arguing...

As I've already stated, JaronK is retarded.

And I would in addition request you cease using ad hominem within your arguments.

Read the thread again, please.

[Sinfire Titan]

Okay, let's assume the Erudite doesn't have infinite Power points because the Sorcerer can do that too, as below, and no retraining, because again, Sorcerers have all spells on their list known under that rule.

You have an Erudite with Spell to power. Compared to a Sorcerer.

Level 1-10, The Erudite sucks, because he can't even cast Arcane Fusion. Sorcerer has more spells that he can cast in a day, and they are better and more diverse. He also has the ability to be a damage class without sucking, if that's important. He also gets access to good spells a level before the Erudite. He also doesn't have to spend XP to get spells.

Admittedly, this is the hardest part of playing an Erudite of any variety. You do make up for it with the whole Minion trick, but that tappers off after a few levels.

Level 11: Arcane Fusion. He has a shitty level 6 power he's not going to use, but he wins at level 1-4 and 6. Clear win.

Level 12:

Erudite wins level 1-4 in versatility wars, has the same number of level 5 and 6 spells. But worse level 6 ones. XP.

Level 13:

Erudite has more spells known of levels 0-4. He can use all his unique powers as level 5 and 6 and 7 powers, but his level 7 powers Aren't very good. He must spend XP for good level 5 and 6 powers now.

level 14:

Sorcerer now has level 7 spell that is better than whatever the Erudite is casting. Still has just as good and about as many spells of level 5 and 6, he also has all the good 1-4 spells, so maybe once or twice a day the Erudite pulls out something cool. The rest of the time, the Sorcerer is better.

Level 15-16: Repeat levels 13 and 14, except the range of spells that the Sorcerer is better at is larger, it's now 4 spell levels, that he has more spells known, to counteract the 4 spell levels the Erudite has on him. Except his are all higher level.

Level 17: Greater Arcane Fusion. Now the Sorcerer has better 8th level spells, but no 9th, and the Erudite is better at 7 and below. First clear win for the Erudite since level 11.

Level 18-20: Sorcerer may have worse level 1-7 versatility, but he counters that with much better level 9 spells.

And that's not counting the PrC advantage or feats or anything.

The Erudite straight loses levels 1-10 without even comparing favorably to Tier 3 classes, then he finally gets to be a real class, except he's always a level behind the Sorcerer in good spells (which is a travesty since the Sorcerer is already behind).

I was nice here, if I made the Sorcerer a Kobold, the Erudite loses both his clear wins to murky maybes and is clearly losing every level except 11 and 17.

You are ignoring the fact that the Erudite only has to pay for spells above and beyond his normal 2 powers known/level. ANd the fact that he still has normal Psion power access.

And, to be fair, if the Erudite doesn't get Psion powers, the Sorcerer shouldn't be allowed to use Kobold tricks such as Loredrake or Right of Passage. You are ignoring an entire book's worth of options? I'm ignoring one of the most questionable abilities ever printed, a pair of feats, and an entire race.

The question is: Which occurs more often as a level 14 spellcaster:

"Man I really wish I could cast Knock right now."

"I only have Decerebrate and Insanity. I sure wish I had Avasculate or Stun Ray."

When does a 14th level Erudite only have 2 Unique Powers/day? If he multiclasses out of Erudite at 2nd level. At 14th level, he has a decent amount of options (9 Unique powers/day), not counting Arcane Fusion shenanigans or UPD. News flash: The Erudite doesn't need UPD or UMD if he knows the power/spell. It's on his list of powers known? He can use it unhindered.

Guess what? A 14th level Sorcerer only knows about 6 spells/level, give or take for a few levels/builds. The Erudite know 4 of each level base, and can spend XP to learn more. XP is a River, after all.

EDIT: You are also choosing to be a class that get's good spells a level later and spends large amounts of XP to even know those spells. You are going to be 2 levels from getting Fleshshiver when a shitty Sorcerer suffering from Skip Williams disease get's it. 3 Levels away when a Kobold Sorcerer does.

Ignoring Kobold options, big deal. The Erudite has other options. Like any 4 psionic powers/level of his choice.


Unlike the Wizard, the Erudite can pick his Unique Powers on the fly. This means, barring 24 hour buffs (which would be cast from magic items anyway, as wasting Unique Powers on those is retarded), he can pick any power from his list during the first encounter each day. Then, for the rest of the day, he's stuck with that power. If one of those is Arcane Fusion (for a 14th level Erudite, that's no problem), he bypasses this. That means a single Unique Power has to be Arcane Fusion or Greater Arcane Fusion. All of the rest can be anything he wants, chosen and set at his leisure. He doesn't need an hour to prepare each day, and he doesn't need 15 minutes of downtime to prepare unpreped slots.

Sorcerer is in combat at level 12, he blew a feat on Arcane Disciple because this trick is so good. He blows all his level 6 slots. He then uses a level 5 slot to Planeshift to a Timeless plane where he rests for 8 hours, then gets his spells back, he uses a level 5 slot to Plane shift back, then he teleports if/when he needs to. 3 seconds after his disappearance he reappears with a full complement of level 6 spells. He repeats this as necessary.

Same with the Erudite. He can Plane Shift at the same level a Sorcerer can because Plane Shift, Psionic, is a 5th level power he picked up with one of his 2 free powers/level. He comes back with a fresh list of Unique Powers/day, and an entire supply of Power Points. If he knows what he is doing, he can play GOD using Solid Fog, Grease, Cloudkill, or a number of other battlefield control powers/spells. As long as he leaves Arcane Fusion open, he can use any spell/power on his list. If he needs to, he will leave open a slot for Plane Shift.

Same trick. Different class. More flexibility. Oh, wait. The Erudite gets 5th level powers at 9th level, a full level before non-Kobold Sorcerers.

It costs an Erudite a measly 400 XP to learn a spell or power above and beyond the normal 2/level limit. Thanks to the XP is a River phenomenon, he will almost never feel this loss. If he waits until 12th level, he can drop an entire level into learning powers, or a whopping 11,000 XP. He then gains XP faster than the other characters because he is a level behind. He's using the equivalent of 2 Wish spells and a Gate spell (calling version) to learn 27 powers. He will have an additional 200 xp left over from this sink. Oh wait, my math's off. At 11th level, it would only cost him 220 XP per power he learns. So that's actually 50 "free" powers learned.

The Sorcerer can't add 50 spells to his list of spells known for 11K XP, can he? The Wizard can do something similar, but it costs him GP instead.

*Raises hand*How does an erudite even use arcane Fusion? He doesn't have any sorcerer spells known. He has power versions of sorcerer spells, but I think they are different from sorcerer spells. Or is this one of those weird rules things.

This is one of those Semantics things. Technically, he does know Sorcerer spells if he uses Spell to Power. Any spell the Sorcerer could learn, the Erudite can learn (save for 9th level ones).

[lans]

*Raises hand*How does an erudite even use arcane Fusion? He doesn't have any sorcerer spells known. He has power versions of sorcerer spells, but I think they are different from sorcerer spells. Or is this one of those weird rules things.

This is one of those Semantics things. Technically, he does know Sorcerer spells if he uses Spell to Power. Any spell the Sorcerer could learn, the Erudite can learn (save for 9th level ones).

Except no where in the spell to powers does it actually allow him to learn spells, at all. It allows him to "convert an arcane spell into a power". So he doesn't have any sorcerer spells known. Unless transparency allows him to get over this due to odd wording or something. I suppose a cerebramancer erudite/arcane might be able to make use of it, but not a straight erudite.

[Sinfire Titan]

*Raises hand*How does an erudite even use arcane Fusion? He doesn't have any sorcerer spells known. He has power versions of sorcerer spells, but I think they are different from sorcerer spells. Or is this one of those weird rules things.

This is one of those Semantics things. Technically, he does know Sorcerer spells if he uses Spell to Power. Any spell the Sorcerer could learn, the Erudite can learn (save for 9th level ones).

Except no where in the spell to powers does it actually allow him to learn spells, at all. It allows him to "convert an arcane spell into a power". So he doesn't have any sorcerer spells known. Unless transparency allows him to get over this due to odd wording or something. I suppose a cerebramancer erudite/arcane might be able to make use of it, but not a straight erudite.

Chalk it up to the Devs not taking the variant into account. RAW, a Recaster can learn Arcane Fusion and use it, even if he isn't a Sorcerer. Regardless, Transparency should work on this.

[Kaelik]

You are ignoring the fact that the Erudite only has to pay for spells above and beyond his normal 2 powers known/level. ANd the fact that he still has normal Psion power access.

No I'm not. He has to spend XP for every Arcane Spell he wants, every Discipline Power he wants. In other words, everything good. I also explicitly called out his Psion Power access, it's just not very good because he doesn't have diciplines or arcane spells, so his highest level power known is usually not even as good as some from the level below.

And, to be fair, if the Erudite doesn't get Psion powers, the Sorcerer shouldn't be allowed to use Kobold tricks such as Loredrake or Right of Passage. You are ignoring an entire book's worth of options? I'm ignoring one of the most questionable abilities ever printed, a pair of feats, and an entire race.

Is that a joke? I never brought Loredrake into this because, I excluded bullshit cheese. Draconic Rite isn't cheese or questionable, it exists for the express purpose of giving Kobold Sorcerers spells at the same level Wizards get them. And that's a common houserule for lots of people on it's own. I'm not ignoring an entire books worth of anything, I'm not allowing retraining to magically grant spells known for free and I'm not getting into infinite cheese, because that can be done in core.

When does a 14th level Erudite only have 2 Unique Powers/day? If he multiclasses out of Erudite at 2nd level. At 14th level, he has a decent amount of options (9 Unique powers/day), not counting Arcane Fusion shenanigans or UPD. News flash: The Erudite doesn't need UPD or UMD if he knows the power/spell. It's on his list of powers known? He can use it unhindered.

Guess what? A 14th level Sorcerer only knows about 6 spells/level, give or take for a few levels/builds. The Erudite know 4 of each level base, and can spend XP to learn more. XP is a River, after all.

And for level 7, an Erudite can choose their 4 from the list I present above. And the Sorcerer can only have Avasculate and Stun ray. Avasculate and Stun ray is still better. Later, when an Erudite can get those spells as well, the Sorcerer has Greater Arcane Fusion and something else, that The Erudite doesn't.

And XP is a River? Are you fucking kidding me? I know you are smarter than that Sinfire. XP can only be a river if you are a level below your allies. In which case, the Sorcerer get's Kobold for free because you committed to being a level lower most of the time. XP is a river when you turn it into items which add +X to your stats and give you cool abilities to make up for your level. XP is a River when you use it to purchase LA which gives you +s and abilities. XP is a Puddle when you are spending it to get spells that are of a lower level than the ones that everyone else can cast.

EDIT: You are also choosing to be a class that get's good spells a level later and spends large amounts of XP to even know those spells. You are going to be 2 levels from getting Fleshshiver when a shitty Sorcerer suffering from Skip Williams disease get's it. 3 Levels away when a Kobold Sorcerer does.

Ignoring Kobold options, big deal. The Erudite has other options. Like any 4 psionic powers/level of his choice.

Same with the Erudite. He can Plane Shift at the same level a Sorcerer can because Plane Shift, Psionic, is a 5th level power he picked up with one of his 2 free powers/level. He comes back with a fresh list of Unique Powers/day, and an entire supply of Power Points. If he knows what he is doing, he can play GOD using Solid Fog, Grease, Cloudkill, or a number of other battlefield control powers/spells. As long as he leaves Arcane Fusion open, he can use any spell/power on his list. If he needs to, he will leave open a slot for Plane Shift.

I think you missed the point. A bunch of people claimed the Erudite is better than Sorcerer because it has infinite power points. If both parties have infinite power points, then that statement is retarded and needs to go away. Erudites do not have easier access to infinite PP, because Erudites need SRD + at least one more book (and they need to find a Wu Jen, which is actually impossible because who would be stupid enough to be a Wu Jen willingly but smart enough to cast Wu Jen spells and survive to level 15?)

Same trick. Different class. More flexibility. Oh, wait. The Erudite gets 5th level powers at 9th level, a full level before non-Kobold Sorcerers.

Oh wait, no he doesn't because he spent XP learning level 1-4 Arcane and Discipline spells.

It costs an Erudite a measly 400 XP to learn a spell or power above and beyond the normal 2/level limit. Thanks to the XP is a River phenomenon, he will almost never feel this loss. If he waits until 12th level, he can drop an entire level into learning powers, or a whopping 11,000 XP. He then gains XP faster than the other characters because he is a level behind. He's using the equivalent of 2 Wish spells and a Gate spell (calling version) to learn 27 powers. He will have an additional 200 xp left over from this sink. Oh wait, my math's off. At 11th level, it would only cost him 220 XP per power he learns. So that's actually 50 "free" powers learned.

And all non Kobold Sorcerers are now 2 levels ahead of him in getting to all those spells he'll actually want to learn.

The Sorcerer can't add 50 spells to his list of spells known for 11K XP, can he? The Wizard can do something similar, but it costs him GP instead.

The Sorcerer can do it with XP, and he can do it with GP, and he can do it free with bullshit retraining. And that's all irrelevant because most of it's not ever going to be allowed by a DM, but you know what's best? He can actually just cast spells that are good enough that he doesn't miss having only 4-6 (6-8 with a couple feats) spells of the level instead of 30, because his 4-8 are the best 4-8 of that level.

This is one of those Semantics things. Technically, he does know Sorcerer spells if he uses Spell to Power. Any spell the Sorcerer could learn, the Erudite can learn (save for 9th level ones).

You mean silly semantics like claiming that Body Outside Body leaves Power points even though it takes away spell slots because spellslots are part of the "Spellcasting" that Body Outside Body doesn't have and Power points can come from other sources besides Manifesting (though in this case they don't but hypothetically can, so therefore the new version keeps them)?

[The Lurker]

I'm going to state this again.

An 11th level Erudite is tossing out at best, 4th level effects (arcane fusion), 5th level spells (subject to unique powers per day limitations), or 6th level psionic powers.

Now, they get 6 unique powers per day.  Here's how they pick those out.
Arcane Fusion (because they need it)
Temporal Acceleration (because it's awesome)
Fuse Flesh (because they need it)
3 other 5th level effects (because they only get sixth level picks off of the psion/wilder list and 4th and lower are covered by arcane fusion)
We'll pick: Cloudkill (win, no save), Greater Mirror Image (it's cool), and Greater Blink (also cool).

Ok. so compare to wizard:
You're a wizard that preps flesh to stone and has temporal acceleration (AKA belt of battle).

We don't fucking care because the wizard is an incantatrix and has fuck tons better defenses than you due to persisty buffs.

Ok, let's compare to a shaper:
They also get temporal acceleration.
They get fully augmented vigor+share pain to triple their HP (better than just getting mirror images because it isn't subject to true seeing rape)
Ok. that's pretty much it in favor of the shaper aside from the fact that they last three times as long without recharge.

So, at 11, you're marginally better than a psion and inferior in every way to a wizard.

You improve both in power access and in unique powers per day after that, but let's just look at a few more points.

Level 14:
The Erudite doesn't have greater arcane fusion til three more levels, so he's going to have to unique manifest anything over 4.
Uniques (8 total): Arcane fusion, 7 others.  We pick:
Temporal Acceleration (because getting an extended TA at 13 pp is fucking awesome)
Mind Blank, Personal (because you need it)
Some other 5 and 6 spells.  We don't really care.

An equal level wizard is tossing out stun rays to fucking win combats.
An equal level psion is tossing out mass ectoplasmic cocoon to also fucking win combats.

So, in order to catch up, those better be some DAMN good level 5 and 6 spells.

So, best case, the Erudite is surpassing the psion and not equalling the wizard.  We don't fucking care.

[Sinfire Titan]

Here's an exact quote:

An Erudite manifests Psionic Powers, paying for each manifestation with an expenditure of Power Points. Unlike a Psion, an Erudite is limited to manifesting a certain number of unique psionic powers of each level per day

RAW: The Erudite doesn't have to select 11 powers from his entire repertoire. He selects 11 powers/level he can manifest from that list, and can only manifest from those specific 11/power level.


RAI: Probably the way we've been arguing about.






Discuss.

[Kaelik]

EDIT: Misread.