Brilliant Gameologists Forum
The Thinktank => Min/Max It! => : Optimator February 17, 2009, 11:14:04 PM
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I was wondering if anyone had advice on feats for a Sublime Chord build.
First thing's first:
Str: 10
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 16
Wis: 12
Cha: 17
Human. Starting at level 3. Party not yet determined, and the character will likely campaign-hop regularly anyway. Build will end up being Bard 6 Lyric Thurmaturge 3 Virtuoso 1 Sublime Chord 2 Virtuoso 8 (Pretty sure this set-up is legal). Switching Countersong for Spellbreaker Song. I am also thinking about switching Fascinate for Healing Hymn, just because I will get it back with Virtuoso. Healing Hymn will be more useful at lower levels than later levels, but I worry the same may be true for Fascinate. Less so, I would imagine.
Pretty much all WotC books + web stuff allowed, no Dragon material (except maybe the compendium), no flaws/traits but UA is mostly available. Relevant house rules... I start with an extra bonus feat at first level (total of 3 at 1st), Bards get Intimidate as a class skill, all bardic music used with Captivating Melody will work with SC casting, [edit]metamagic feats do not increase casting times[/edit]... That's all I can think of that will affect this character.
Goal: Pretty standard SC build. I wanted to maintain most bard and bard-like abilities (skills, music, Bardic Knowledge, etc) while being a dedicated caster class--hence I didn't roll up a Wizard or something.
What feats should I get? So far I've chosen Melodic Casting. I was thinking of just using my free bonus feat for Versatile Performer since I won't be particularly underpowered and my group doesn't optimize very heavily. I just like it. I am pretty set on getting Doomspeak too. Hopefully Doomspeak won't cause and DM book-throwing.
Some feats I am throwing around in the ol' noodle:
Versatile Spellcaster
Extend Spell
Rapid Metamagic (in case the DM changes his mind on the casting time)
Metamagic Song
Lingering Song
Subsonics
Spell Focus: Enchantment or Illusion
Arcane Mastery (I adore this feat, but I might not be needing to penetrate SR often)
Lyric Spell
Sound Of Silence
Extra Music--fuel other bardic feats.
One major question is whether I should try to get really focused with Enchantment and/or Illusion spells. I'm getting Captivating Melody for free with the Lyric Thurmaturge, so one shtick could be using Captivating Melody and other DC boosters to be at potent as a high-level enchanter/illusionist can be (considering the drop-off in effectiveness these schools seem to have concerning high-level encounters).
Is it best for a SC to be a real generalist with spell selection or is it good to specialize in the existing strengths of bardic casting? Perhaps it is better to ignore offensive abilities that require saves and go the buffer route. That route would benefit from things like Metamagic Song and standard bardic music buffs greatly, I believe. This all would play a great deal of importance in feat selection, no?
So, I ask you, how would you make a Sublime Chord? Any help you could impart would be greatly appreciated.
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Never underestimate the supreme power of fascinate. Perform checks are easy to pump, and you can bypass anything with a will save modifier lower than your perform check modifier that's not immune to mind effecting abilities. A dragon chasing you? Fascinate it. It'll roll a 1 on its save vs suggestion eventually.
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Never heard of sound of silence, where is it from?
the key to optimization is to have a goal/concept and stick to it. throwing feats around does no good.
Melodic Casting is okay if you really want lyric thau, but a custom item of Undersong is 6,000 gp at most, and does more. The "can cast while singing part" is a lie- the 5 round duration on IC is enough for most combats, so there's no need to maintain your music instead of just casting. If combats last longer, use Lingering Song.
Since you are casting focused decide what kind of spells will be your main "schtick". Sublime chords can buff pretty well, if you go that route, make sure to take buff spells. (Chained) Greater Magic Weapon is a classic buff. Resistance, Greater is good too.
You'll end up with , what 19 uses of bardic music? Persist + Lyric Spell + Sirene's Grace could make you very happy.
Sublime chords also make surprisingly decent offensive casters. Song of Arcane power + Orange Ioun Stone + Other level boosting effects + Holy Word (from Arcane Disciple) is a classic. Another fun route is Vow of Nonviolence + Chain + Unluck + Heighten to really frustrate the enemy. Or take advantage of the fact you get Irresistable Dance at 6 and stack Arcane Thesis, Maximize, Reach, Invisible and Split Ray on it (Sadly, it cannot be chained).
Also, Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability + Harmonic Chorus should theoretically give you +2 DC/+2 CL for all your spells.
If you want to focuses on illusion or enchantment, DC boosters are aplenty in addition to the above; Illusion especially has loads of DC buffs. There's a spend bardic music for +1 DC/+1 CL feat for each, and they stack with Enchanting Melody's +2. Shape Soulmeld: Illusion Veil gives you another +1 DC/+1 for illusions. If you can get a "Shadow Hand Glove" and take Martial Manouver: (any shadow hand), shadow trickster is another +2 Illusion DC. The usual Spell focus and greater spell focus are in play too. The old Snowcasting trick is also +2 DC to all spells.
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A dragon chasing you? Fascinate it.
Oh, I am aware of how powerful fascinate can be, but "The distraction of a nearby combat or other dangers prevents the ability from working." puts a damper on the type of thing you're describing.
Sound of Silence is from Complete Scoundrel.
I'm thinking of going the buffer/generalist route along with Metamagic Song. If I can reliably quicken spells, Doomspeak will be all I need in the DC/saves department. Chain, extend, and quicken spell along with doomspeak, Lyric spell, and one other feat...
Let's see, H-Melodic Casting, lvl 1-extend spell, lvl 3-chain spell, lvl 6-lyric spell, lvl 9- doomspeak, lvl 12-quicken spell, lvl 15-metamagic song. Seems versatile and fun and has an open feat. Your (anyone's) thoughts?
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You'll end up with , what 19 uses of bardic music? Persist + Lyric Spell + Sirene's Grace could make you very happy.
Also, persisting Nixie's Grace might even be better!
Edit: Wait, Metamagic Song specifies (wisely :fo) that it cannot boost a spell's effective level above the highest level spell one can cast. Is there a reliable way for a Sublime Chord to cheese out Persistant Spell?
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You'll end up with , what 19 uses of bardic music? Persist + Lyric Spell + Sirene's Grace could make you very happy.
Also, persisting Nixie's Grace might even be better!
Edit: Wait, Metamagic Song specifies (wisely :fo) that it cannot boost a spell's effective level above the highest level spell one can cast. Is there a reliable way for a Sublime Chord to cheese out Persistant Spell?
Lyric Spell, as I suggested. You can only do it once a day though, given the cost. Maybe twice if you take extra music. And Sirene's grace >>> Nixie's grace for bards IIRC. (Nixie's gives + WIS, instead of + CHA, methinks).
Subliem chords, like sorcerors are not good "generalists". A little focus is good. Pick either Persist or Quicken, both is pushing it. Doomspeak is broken as written, and screams to be paired with debuffs Combine it with Unluck or Dominate Person to totally ruin someone's day.
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Nixie's: 6 dexterity, 2 wisdom, 8 charisma, 30 swim, breathing, low light vision. Normally 10 minutes/level.
Sirine's: 4 dexterity, 4 charisma, charisma to AC (deflection), +8 perform, swim of 60, breathing, attack normally underwater. Normally 1 round/level.
Also, I was unaware Lyric Spell could do that. It appears to, though.
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Nixie's: 6 dexterity, 2 wisdom, 8 charisma, 30 swim, breathing, low light vision. Normally 10 minutes/level.
Sirine's: 4 dexterity, 4 charisma, charisma to AC (deflection), +8 perform, swim of 60, breathing, attack normally underwater. Normally 1 round/level.
Also, I was unaware Lyric Spell could do that. It appears to, though.
+8 perform and CHA to AC sounds like a winner to me. You do have fascinate, after all. +8 CHA is nice, but only 2 more than what a cloak + 6 gives you (They don't stack, iirc). Not worth that many uses of BM.
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Also, Lyric's not going to work on Nixie's Grace--no way I can see to use it to get a 12th level spell slot.
If your DM's insane enough to let you do it, be a half-elf and take the first racial substitution level. The limitations on Fascinate just went away--if there's a fight going on, you can reliably stop it, and THEN fascinate the enemy.
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Same deal with Sirine's grace, though. Persisted, it would be a 10th level slot. On the subject of the half-elf substitution, that's a good idea... maybe I can ask for my extra bonus feat to just let me take that as a human (I can't change my race at this point, really).
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Also, Lyric's not going to work on Nixie's Grace--no way I can see to use it to get a 12th level spell slot.
Lyric doesn't require a slot. If lyric doesn't let you cast a 12th level equivalent, neither should the abilities Incantatrix or Anima Mage, yet I see people doing that all the time. Heck, it's just about the same logic behind DMM for that matter.
DM's call, ultimately.
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Also, Lyric's not going to work on Nixie's Grace--no way I can see to use it to get a 12th level spell slot.
Lyric doesn't require a slot. If lyric doesn't let you cast a 12th level equivalent, neither should the abilities Incantatrix or Anima Mage, yet I see people doing that all the time. Heck, it's just about the same logic behind DMM for that matter.
DM's call, ultimately.
Everything's DM's call. Given that Lyric spell stipulates a spell you can cast, I don't think there's a strong case for transcending normal limits.
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Melodic Casting is okay if you really want lyric thau, but a custom item of Undersong is 6,000 gp at most, and does more. The "can cast while singing part" is a lie- the 5 round duration on IC is enough for most combats, so there's no need to maintain your music instead of just casting. If combats last longer, use Lingering Song.
Or even better, cast Animate Instrument and let your banjo do it for you.
Seriously though, Melodic Casting is awesome because it frees up skill points (and money!) you could use for something else.
NEVER underestimate the duration of a combat. Things can get... hectic.
Lyric Spell, as I suggested. You can only do it once a day though, given the cost.
Good catch. I didn't know Lyric Spell could break the cap like that!
Given that there's nothing against stacking Extended and Persist, you could conceivably buff yourself with 48-hour duration spells.
I do somewhat disagree on a bard's ability to become a "generalist" via Sublime Chord. Shadow Conjuration/Evocation alone gives you so much flexibility Dhalsim would looke like a diamond statue in comparison. Generally, the best way to cover a wide array of situations is to get versatile spells - Polymorph, Shadow Conj/Evoc, Bestow Curse, Limited Wish, Anyspell...
I would strongly suggest fitting in Shadowcraft Mage if you can convince your DM to waive the race restriction.
I also suggest putting more Lyric Thaumaturge levels in if you intend to specialize in casting. The reason? More spells known, out of other lists to boot, and more spell slots. Trust me, you won't regret it. Virtuoso is fine, but doesn't work very well on a caster-focused build.
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Melodic Casting is okay if you really want lyric thau, but a custom item of Undersong is 6,000 gp at most, and does more. The "can cast while singing part" is a lie- the 5 round duration on IC is enough for most combats, so there's no need to maintain your music instead of just casting. If combats last longer, use Lingering Song.
Or even better, cast Animate Instrument and let your banjo do it for you.
Seriously though, Melodic Casting is awesome because it frees up skill points (and money!) you could use for something else.
NEVER underestimate the duration of a combat. Things can get... hectic.
Lyric Spell, as I suggested. You can only do it once a day though, given the cost.
Good catch. I didn't know Lyric Spell could break the cap like that!
Given that there's nothing against stacking Extended and Persist, you could conceivably buff yourself with 48-hour duration spells.
I do somewhat disagree on a bard's ability to become a "generalist" via Sublime Chord. Shadow Conjuration/Evocation alone gives you so much flexibility Dhalsim would looke like a diamond statue in comparison. Generally, the best way to cover a wide array of situations is to get versatile spells - Polymorph, Shadow Conj/Evoc, Bestow Curse, Limited Wish, Anyspell...
I would strongly suggest fitting in Shadowcraft Mage if you can convince your DM to waive the race restriction.
I also suggest putting more Lyric Thaumaturge levels in if you intend to specialize in casting. The reason? More spells known, out of other lists to boot, and more spell slots. Trust me, you won't regret it. Virtuoso is fine, but doesn't work very well on a caster-focused build.
Caelic disputes Lyric's cap breaking, so we're down to what the DM says. As for melodic. Check the entry for the Undersong spell. It's superior to melodic, and as I said a custom item of it would only be 2000 to 6000 gold.
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The Lyric Thurmaturge specifies that it only advances Bard casting, whereas the Virtuoso is any previous casting class (Sublime Chord in this case). That is the reason for so few Lyric Thurmaturge levels. The shadow evocation/conjuration spells will be pretty crucial with so few spells known, it seems, since this character needs to be so self-sufficient. I'm definitely gonna pick up versatile spells. I have been planning out what spells to learn, and it is getting pretty rough for level 4 and 6. So much good stuff.
Everything's DM's call. Given that Lyric spell stipulates a spell you can cast, I don't think there's a strong case for transcending normal limits.
As for Lyric Spell and metamagic, I'm pretty sure it won't fly. I have an Incantatrix and my DM(s) are fully aware of it's errata. I wonder if Lyric Spell is still worth picking up if I am gonna get Metamagic Song. I suppose it will depend on how much use I will get out of casting extra low-level spells after the slots are expended. A level 18 feat choice... maybe.
Concerning Doomspeak... how should I pitch that to my DM? -5 to all instead of 10 and DC is 10+1/2 level+Cha instead of 10+level+Cha? Is that more balanced? Is that worth it? Obviously this has little to do with actual CO--this is more of a general question.
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Concerning Doomspeak... how should I pitch that to my DM? -5 to all instead of 10 and DC is 10+1/2 level+Cha instead of 10+level+Cha? Is that more balanced? Is that worth it? Obviously this has little to do with actual CO--this is more of a general question.
Definately nerf the DC, the feat is good even with that, and that DC is too high. Not really necessarily to nerf the penalty so much, IMO, but YMMV.
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Caelic disputes Lyric's cap breaking, so we're down to what the DM says. As for melodic. Check the entry for the Undersong spell. It's superior to melodic, and as I said a custom item of it would only be 2000 to 6000 gold.
I am familiar with Undersong. It does not, by the way, allow you to cast while singing, which Melodic Casting does. Plus, it's a first-level spell - just learn it if it's that awesome! Better than to buy an item and be screwed if it's taken away.
The Lyric Thurmaturge specifies that it only advances Bard casting, whereas the Virtuoso is any previous casting class (Sublime Chord in this case). That is the reason for so few Lyric Thurmaturge levels.
Hmmm, good catch. The Sublime Chord has a really strange advancement, though, I wonder if you absolutely couldn't combine Lyric Thaumaturge with it?
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Caelic disputes Lyric's cap breaking, so we're down to what the DM says. As for melodic. Check the entry for the Undersong spell. It's superior to melodic, and as I said a custom item of it would only be 2000 to 6000 gold.
I am familiar with Undersong. It does not, by the way, allow you to cast while singing, which Melodic Casting does. Plus, it's a first-level spell - just learn it if it's that awesome! Better than to buy an item and be screwed if it's taken away.
Cast while singing IS A LIE. Like the cake. I went over that already.
It's a near useless ability, unless your DM houserules Countersong to make it useful.
Learning it isn't a bad idea, but the duration is meh. If it were 1/hour per level, i'd advise just learning it.
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Caelic disputes Lyric's cap breaking, so we're down to what the DM says. As for melodic. Check the entry for the Undersong spell. It's superior to melodic, and as I said a custom item of it would only be 2000 to 6000 gold.
I am familiar with Undersong. It does not, by the way, allow you to cast while singing, which Melodic Casting does. Plus, it's a first-level spell - just learn it if it's that awesome! Better than to buy an item and be screwed if it's taken away.
Cast while singing IS A LIE. Like the cake. I went over that already.
It's a near useless ability, unless your DM houserules Countersong to make it useful.
Learning it isn't a bad idea, but the duration is meh. If it were 1/hour per level, i'd advise just learning it.
Sadly, you also forgot that Melodic Casting is pretty much Undersong active 24 hours a day at no investment whatsoever (except for a feat, you don't expend spells/day or money to buy it).
Casting while singing has its uses, actually, namely when you want to get more songs going (and you don't have Seeker of the Song levels). While it doesn't really keep you from spending more actions, it does keep some actions alive. Compared to that, Undersong is slightly inferior. Undersong is actually more useful if you have more stuff to do with a Concentration check (like dipping any ToB classes for Diamond Mind counters, or if you have levels of Kensai); otherwise, Melodic Casting gives you more bang for your buck, with the advantage it can't be taken away from you.
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Caelic disputes Lyric's cap breaking, so we're down to what the DM says. As for melodic. Check the entry for the Undersong spell. It's superior to melodic, and as I said a custom item of it would only be 2000 to 6000 gold.
I am familiar with Undersong. It does not, by the way, allow you to cast while singing, which Melodic Casting does. Plus, it's a first-level spell - just learn it if it's that awesome! Better than to buy an item and be screwed if it's taken away.
Cast while singing IS A LIE. Like the cake. I went over that already.
It's a near useless ability, unless your DM houserules Countersong to make it useful.
Learning it isn't a bad idea, but the duration is meh. If it were 1/hour per level, i'd advise just learning it.
Sadly, you also forgot that Melodic Casting is pretty much Undersong active 24 hours a day at no investment whatsoever (except for a feat, you don't expend spells/day or money to buy it).
Casting while singing has its uses, actually, namely when you want to get more songs going (and you don't have Seeker of the Song levels). While it doesn't really keep you from spending more actions, it does keep some actions alive. Compared to that, Undersong is slightly inferior. Undersong is actually more useful if you have more stuff to do with a Concentration check (like dipping any ToB classes for Diamond Mind counters, or if you have levels of Kensai); otherwise, Melodic Casting gives you more bang for your buck, with the advantage it can't be taken away from you.
Casting while singing means you are maintaining your song with your standard action, and QUICKENED casting a spell. First off all the cost of doing that is high, and usually not worth it. Just stop singing; your best songs go on another 5 rounds, which IME is plenty. starting the song up again is just 1 BM use as opposed to the 4 (or 4 spell levels) you need for quicken. There are a few spells that are naturally swift/immediate; Melodic is good for those, but 99% of the time, you might as well just STOP singing. CASTING WHILE SINGING IS A LIE. It sounds useful, but is only so on VERY rare occasion. Melodic is worthwhile if you want Lyric Thau's extra spells and/or plan to enter Shadowcraft Mage (Captivating melody for +2 DC). But that's as a prereq feat. Otherwise, there are more powerful feats for bards, to my thinking. Bardic casters are feat starved as is.
Oh, and I just noticed: bards can't use quicken without Rapid Metamagic, which eats your 9th level feat. So yeah, you need to fix that Opti.
Um, Kuroi, I don't want to sound antagonistic. Agree to disagree? :bigeye
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To the best of my knowledge and reading comprehension, most bardic songs--specifically the ones that buff allies--don't require concentration; it's just a standard action to start up. Things like Fascinate and Countersong/Spellbreaker Song require active concentration. Considering it is a prerequisite anyway, I'm pretty set on getting Melodic Casting. I feel it's a good feat regardless.
Also, my DM is pretty relaxed with spontaneous casters and metamagic feats regarding the increased casting time. That may or may not be a problem. I will edit the first post to reflect this house rule.
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Caelic disputes Lyric's cap breaking, so we're down to what the DM says. As for melodic. Check the entry for the Undersong spell. It's superior to melodic, and as I said a custom item of it would only be 2000 to 6000 gold.
I am familiar with Undersong. It does not, by the way, allow you to cast while singing, which Melodic Casting does. Plus, it's a first-level spell - just learn it if it's that awesome! Better than to buy an item and be screwed if it's taken away.
Cast while singing IS A LIE. Like the cake. I went over that already.
It's a near useless ability, unless your DM houserules Countersong to make it useful.
Learning it isn't a bad idea, but the duration is meh. If it were 1/hour per level, i'd advise just learning it.
Sadly, you also forgot that Melodic Casting is pretty much Undersong active 24 hours a day at no investment whatsoever (except for a feat, you don't expend spells/day or money to buy it).
Casting while singing has its uses, actually, namely when you want to get more songs going (and you don't have Seeker of the Song levels). While it doesn't really keep you from spending more actions, it does keep some actions alive. Compared to that, Undersong is slightly inferior. Undersong is actually more useful if you have more stuff to do with a Concentration check (like dipping any ToB classes for Diamond Mind counters, or if you have levels of Kensai); otherwise, Melodic Casting gives you more bang for your buck, with the advantage it can't be taken away from you.
Casting while singing means you are maintaining your song with your standard action, and QUICKENED casting a spell. First off all the cost of doing that is high, and usually not worth it. Just stop singing; your best songs go on another 5 rounds, which IME is plenty. starting the song up again is just 1 BM use as opposed to the 4 (or 4 spell levels) you need for quicken. There are a few spells that are naturally swift/immediate; Melodic is good for those, but 99% of the time, you might as well just STOP singing. CASTING WHILE SINGING IS A LIE. It sounds useful, but is only so on VERY rare occasion. Melodic is worthwhile if you want Lyric Thau's extra spells and/or plan to enter Shadowcraft Mage (Captivating melody for +2 DC). But that's as a prereq feat. Otherwise, there are more powerful feats for bards, to my thinking. Bardic casters are feat starved as is.
Oh, and I just noticed: bards can't use quicken without Rapid Metamagic, which eats your 9th level feat. So yeah, you need to fix that Opti.
Um, Kuroi, I don't want to sound antagonistic. Agree to disagree? :bigeye
I don't mind a little antagonism, as long as the intent is good. We each have our opinion, and Opti is already set on getting the feat anyway. :P
I'd advise against trying to optimize Quicken Spell for a spontaneous caster, but given that Opti's DM is lax about the issue, go for it!
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Uh, no - Melodic Spell doesn't limit you to swift action spells. Casting while singing is not a lie.
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Uh, no - Melodic Spell doesn't limit you to swift action spells. Casting while singing is not a lie.
In order to cast a standard action spell, you have to STOP SINGING. What is so damn hard to understand about that?
Sheesh.
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The fact the Melodic Spell says you can cast at the same time as singing. It's a specific exception that trumps the generality. The idea is that you weave the components for the spell into your performance.
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I think what OS means is that the ability to cast while singing isn't worth the feat.
The ability to get Undersong pretty much around the clock probably is, though, and I disagree on the first part too.
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The fact the Melodic Spell says you can cast at the same time as singing. It's a specific exception that trumps the generality. The idea is that you weave the components for the spell into your performance.
Melodic does NOT say you can use the same standard action to both maintain your song and cast a spell. either you need to get an extra standard action somehow, or quicken your spell.
Now if you can get your DM to okay your reading, then casting while singing is not a lie, but I believe my reading to be both RAW and RAI.
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If you can only cast quickened spells, then they wouldn't have bothered to put that bit in the feat at all - if you're using a standard action to maintain the song, you can cast quickened spells anyway. It says you can cast while singing, clearly, you can cast normally while singing.
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If you can only cast quickened spells, then they wouldn't have bothered to put that bit in the feat at all - if you're using a standard action to maintain the song, you can cast quickened spells anyway. It says you can cast while singing, clearly, you can cast normally while singing.
No, singing interrupts your ability to cast with verbal components as you cannot say two different things at once, and all bard spells require verbal components.
Look at the text:
In addition, you can cast spells and activate magic items
by command word or spell completion while using a bardic
music ability. Bardic music abilities that require concentration
still take a standard action to perform.
Normal: A bard can't cast spells or activate magic items
by command word or spell completion while using bardic
music.
I stand by my reading. If it was meant to let you use your standard action for two things at once, it would have said so.
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How about this text? "Starting a bardic music effect is a standard action. Some bardic music abilities require concentration, which means the bard must take a standard action each round to maintain the ability. Even while using bardic music that doesn’t require concentration, a bard cannot cast spells, activate magic items by spell completion (such as scrolls), spell trigger (such as wands), or command word."
Fascinate, Countersong, and I believe Song of Freedom require the concentration-standard action every round.
Edit: also, Inspire Competence, I think.
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How about this text? "Starting a bardic music effect is a standard action. Some bardic music abilities require concentration, which means the bard must take a standard action each round to maintain the ability. Even while using bardic music that doesn’t require concentration, a bard cannot cast spells, activate magic items by spell completion (such as scrolls), spell trigger (such as wands), or command word."
Fascinate, Countersong, and I believe Song of Freedom require the concentration-standard action every round.
Edit: also, Inspire Competence, I think.
Inspire courage, greatness and heroics state: The effect lasts for as long as the ally hears the bard sing and for 5 rounds thereafter.
I understood this to mean a bard can concentrate on his bardic music for a number of rounds, after which it continues to have effect (silently) for 5 more rounds. In effect, if it were a spell, IC would have a duration of Concentration + 5 rounds.
The text for the Harmonize spell reinforces this impression. Also note that greater harmonize makes maintaining BM a move action, so you have your standard free to cast.
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Sadly in this case, OS is right: you cannot sing and cast with the same action.
You CAN, however, mantain the singing and cast a spell during that period (thus allowing you to use Inspire Greatness and perhaps buff up your CL? I can't recall whether it lasts beyond your singing). Which, according to OS, isn't a good enough benefit to be worth the feat. For me, it is.
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Sadly in this case, OS is right: you cannot sing and cast with the same action.
You CAN, however, mantain the singing and cast a spell during that period (thus allowing you to use Inspire Greatness and perhaps buff up your CL? I can't recall whether it lasts beyond your singing). Which, according to OS, isn't a good enough benefit to be worth the feat. For me, it is.
There are probably good swift/immediate action spells that work with Melodic Casting. I typically think in terms of either Bard/Initiator or Bard/SC builds, both of which are sufficiently feat starved that you'd want a more pressingly necessary feat instead.
IC, IG and IH all last 5 rounds past your singing, so yes, it does work.
I believe the usual way of doing this is (Half elf- for the calming song) Bard9/Virtuoso1/sublimechord2/+virtuoso.
IG the first round, SoAP as a move the next and then cast as a standard. Add in the old Imbue Familiar With Spell Ability + Harmonic Chorus trick, and you get +9 to CL, which is pretty impressive. Combine with holy word for DM-Wrath worthy shenniagans.
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Could you go into a little more detail about that Imbue Familiar + Harmonic Chorus trick?
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SpC says that Harmonic Chorus gives a +2 morale bonus to CL and DCs for the target.
I suppose the idea is that you make your Familiar target you with it.
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SpC says that Harmonic Chorus gives a +2 morale bonus to CL and DCs for the target.
I suppose the idea is that you make your Familiar target you with it.
Yep. Bards can't target themselves with that spell, (unless you have one of those DM's that thinks you can use White Raven Tactics and Warning Shout on yourself) so give it to your familiar and have him buff ya.
I really have to make a familiar focused Bard/SC sometime, just for kicks.
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This is a half-dead topic, but since I didn't see it listed - can't you just take the "swift concentration" skill trick to make the bardic music a swift action (and via melodic etc) allow the opportunity to cast spells?
Seems a lot easier than going the "quicken" route
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This is a half-dead topic, but since I didn't see it listed - can't you just take the "swift concentration" skill trick to make the bardic music a swift action (and via melodic etc) allow the opportunity to cast spells?
Seems a lot easier than going the "quicken" route
Swift concentration specifies spells or "similar effects". Not specific enough.
Further, while keeping up the song requires you keep on singing, it doesn't actually spend an action to do so. This is why Perform(Singing) and/or any Perform subset that doesn't require you to use your hands is so good for singing and casting. Hell, be a Warforged Bard and sing all fucking day long, you never tire anyway.
This is also why Melodic Casting isn't a lie.
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This is a half-dead topic, but since I didn't see it listed - can't you just take the "swift concentration" skill trick to make the bardic music a swift action (and via melodic etc) allow the opportunity to cast spells?
Seems a lot easier than going the "quicken" route
Swift concentration specifies spells or "similar effects". Not specific enough.
Further, while keeping up the song requires you keep on singing, it doesn't actually spend an action to do so. This is why Perform(Singing) and/or any Perform subset that doesn't require you to use your hands is so good for singing and casting. Hell, be a Warforged Bard and sing all fucking day long, you never tire anyway.
This is also why Melodic Casting isn't a lie.
Exactly.