Most Overrated PrCs

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Of course, those bolts would be imbued with a set of Body-outside-of-Body Dvati Fiends of Possession.

[Anklebite]

Of course, those bolts would be imbued with a set of Body-outside-of-Body Dvati Fiends of Possession.

let us not forget arcane thesis, so we can twin repeating chain reach transdimensional occular eschew materials snowcasting flashfrost energy addmixture fel draining fel weakening quicken it! as an incantatrix, of course. ....wow, adding all of that up seems to only come to a 5th level spell. cantrips ftw!

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

The other option is Radiant Servant of Pelor.  Yeah, you don't lose anything but a few hitpoints, and that's fine, and it's a solid choice... but what you gain is the ability to use in combat cures a little better.  Since when have in combat cures been something worth cheering about?  By the time your ability to cast really awesome cures comes around, you've already got Heal.

ZOMG YOU ARE SO RIGHT

I have been saying this for quite a while now. Everytime its a "I need ultimate healor build" thread and someone mentions that stupid class. IT DOESN'T WORK LIKE EVERYONE THINKS IT DOES [/rant]

undead will simply cease to exist in your presence (and that's without using any turn attempts)

Turns are cheap.

BBEGs should be turn-immune. And you still have to freaking make the check. Your better off rebuking and I have the build to prove it 

empowered + maximized mass cure x (or mass heal) versus undead?  Or even an empowered heal vs. the BBEG?  oh, and those metamagics are for free.  Add in domain spontaneity, and you're getting the free metamagics spontaneously.  Leaving all of your turn attempts for other niftiness.  And Glory domain is pretty cool, too.
I really think this is a matter of differences in play experiences.

RSoP isn't the best, but it is pretty much cleric+.  I've only seen it recommended for people who don't want to change their playstyle.

Wait a minute -- taking one of the best classes in the game (arguably seconded only to the wizard; and even then ....) and cranking it up to 11 without losing anything (and without any real sacrifice), and you're giving it a "meh"?    um, okay.

Just going to say I understand what you are saying.

Now go read the class again and come back to me. I'll still be here with the same opinion

[ZeroSpace]

Also, wotmaniac, Empower Spell does not work on Heal. Why? Because the amount of damage healed by Heal is not rolled. Would be rediculously good otherwise.

[Shadowhunter]

Minor nitpick:

Stormcaster gives +1 dmg per die and adds a stunning effect.

It's not +1 dmg per die, it's +1 dmg per spell level.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Also, wotmaniac, Empower Spell does not work on Heal. Why? Because the amount of damage healed by Heal is not rolled. Would be rediculously good otherwise.

I think there's a PrC that lets you deliver spells with attacks and add an additional d4?  Something like that.  Gives you d4+150, which can be empowered.

[wotmaniac]

Also, wotmaniac, Empower Spell does not work on Heal. Why? Because the amount of damage healed by Heal is not rolled. Would be rediculously good otherwise.

but there are 7 other spells that it does work on (within the context of the class ability).

For the record -- I never said that RSoP was an OMFGWTFBBQ.  I just don't think that it is "overrated", per sa, based on the general feeling of that class (as "overrated" is a relative term, used in relation to the "hype" that something gets).  If a I saw that the general consensus was indeed that RSoP was an OMFGWTFBBG, then I, too, would say that it was "overrated" (but I don't see that type of consensus, so ....).


Now, as to "overrated", I'd say that there are LOADS of "overrated" PrCs -- in and of themselves -- but only become worth the hype when combined in an 8-PrC-dip build (okay, this may be a bit hyperbolic, but only slightly).  Lets take away the crazy multi-dipping, and many of the OMFG-PrCs become only "good".

[JaronK]

I've actually repeatedly heard of the RSoP as being overpowered and cheesy.  It's not... Cleric is, and RSoP doesn't lose anything compared to Clerics, so there's that.

But by the time you can cast those awesome Maximized Empowered Cures for free, you've got Vigor, Vigorous Circle, and Heal.  Heck, you've probably got DMM:Persistant Vigorous Circle just for giggles, so you don't care about throwing down out of combat heals, and in combat it's Heal you want, not Cure.  Sure, you can nuke undead with these, but what Cleric really has trouble nuking undead?  Even with domain spontenaeity, it just doesn't do that much.

JaronK

[SorO_Lost]

Minor nitpick:

Stormcaster gives +1 dmg per die and adds a stunning effect.

It's not +1 dmg per die, it's +1 dmg per spell level.

Been a long time since I've looked at the entry, it just got compressed into the same idea warmage/cold snap/blistering(or searing?)/etc.

It could deal -1 per spell level and I'd still like it. Adding save or pretty much die to your area blasting damage spells is so nice...

[Dictum Mortuum]

HURR DURR I AR RSoP0R

[SorO_Lost]

HURR DURR I AR RSoP0R

Radiant Servant of Pelor's Obese Rectum?

[ZeroSpace]

Rectum? It damn near killed 'im.

And wotmaniac, I was refering to your 'empowered heal to BBEG' note that PlzBreak quoted. And related, you may be able to get that extra d4 of heal onto Heal, but not from RSoP. I feel confident about my memory on their abilities, since the camp I'm in features a RSoP.

[wotmaniac]

Rectum? It damn near killed 'im.

And wotmaniac, I was refering to your 'empowered heal to BBEG' note that PlzBreak quoted. And related, you may be able to get that extra d4 of heal onto Heal, but not from RSoP. I feel confident about my memory on their abilities, since the camp I'm in features a RSoP.

Wall o' text:
[spoiler]I know how the class works, and simply mis-spoke when trying to demonstrate my point.  I realize this, and thought that I had corrected myself.  Let me do so again -- I realize that the free MM that a RSoP gets only applies to 7 of the 9 domain spells from the Healing Domain (with heal and mass heal being the 2 exceptions). 
I also know how useful these can be for more than healing (i.e., undead) -- seeing as how my particular group sees a BUTT-LOAD of undead-centered games, perhaps we are able to experience a bit more mileage out of this class than most other groups (hence my inclusion of "YMMV").
 
I also thought that I articulated that I'm over any sort of debate on the subject, as I really don't care enough to keep going on this.

I was also under the impression that I had indicated that I wasn't trying to start a debate -- I was simply chiming in with my 2-cents (and didn't really expect any change back).  I have listed the reasons that I like the class, and am pretty much done with it.  I never said that anyone needed to agree with me.  If there is some unwritten rule about having to have a major debate over every single post, then someone needs to fill me in. 

 ---- quick question -- how many people have to storm me over the same mistake before we get to move on?  never mind that I corrected myself after the first one.  ----

I have also long ago admitted that YMMV -- to each their own.  No 2 people's experiences are exactly the same, and different groups and different games have different results.  I get everybody's point -- I really do get it. 

So, one more time, let me reiterate my understanding of the base assumptions:
-- "overrated" is a relative term, that is only relevant when comparing actual results with the related "hype"
-- I have not really seen all that much "hype" in relation to RSoP -- I have only seen that it is respected as being solid (and for what should be obvious reasons).
-- by what I have seen, then by definition, RSoP is not overrated.  However, I also have already said that if someone wants to call RSoP a ZOMGWTFBBQ, then yes, it would be severely overrated (which, evidently, some of you have seen this).
[/spoiler]

So, can we please move on now?

[ZeroSpace]

... Ah. Sorry if I offended. 

[Lycanthromancer]

Q: Could you Empower a heal affected by the Psionic Fist feat?

(Also, cast a spell to get a nat 20 on your touch attack; critical heals ftw.)

[Kuroi Kenshi]

Lets take away the crazy multi-dipping, and many of the OMFG-PrCs become only "good".

Take away crazy multi-dipping, and all you're left with are a handful of PrCs worth taking, and by extension, character builds.

[Dragonamedrake]

Lets take away the crazy multi-dipping, and many of the OMFG-PrCs become only "good".

Take away crazy multi-dipping, and all you're left with are a handful of PrCs worth taking, and by extension, character builds.

Wait your saying that without dipping you can only think of 7 worthwhile Character builds? There are what... 30 base classes... and hundreds of prestige classes and there are only 7 good builds lol. I assume your embellishing, but come on. I can think of 4 off the top of my head with the most narrow of classes... the druid.

20 Druid
Druid/Wiz/AH
Druid/PS
Druid/Shifter

Dipping is all fine and dandy and needed with some builds I suppose... but if you start building characters with 7 or more classes in the span of 20 lvls its starting to just become silly. Who really plays a character like that... what sane DM allows that lol. And I know I know... this is just an OP board and most of these builds are just a mental exercise but lets not get hasty and start looking down on builds that focus on one or two Prestige classes. You can still optimize without dipping.

P.S. Never been a huge fan of RSoP myself either.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Well, there are a ton of classes that are pointless outside of dips.

Like fighter or mindbender.

[Bozwevial]

Well, there are a ton of classes that are pointless outside of dips.

Like fighter or mindbender.

Wait, you mean Mindbender isn't only one level long?

[Unbeliever]

[off topic]

Lets take away the crazy multi-dipping, and many of the OMFG-PrCs become only "good".

Take away crazy multi-dipping, and all you're left with are a handful of PrCs worth taking, and by extension, character builds.

...
Dipping is all fine and dandy and needed with some builds I suppose... but if you start building characters with 7 or more classes in the span of 20 lvls its starting to just become silly. Who really plays a character like that... what sane DM allows that lol. And I know I know... this is just an OP board and most of these builds are just a mental exercise but lets not get hasty and start looking down on builds that focus on one or two Prestige classes. You can still optimize without dipping.
...

It's really a question of design and game philosophy.  I tend to think of a character idea, often something I want the character to do, concept, etc., and then go to try and build them.  Often, this doesn't match up w/ what some random writer happened to have thought to include in a book.  Or, alternatively, the classes they've come up w/ suck (viz. the aforementioned Mindbender, various archer PrCs).  Hence, the dipping. 

I also think of classes as game artifacts, just like attack bonuses, etc.  Warrior is a profession, not a character class, and characters in the narrative don't peak at your build stub.  So, whether you have Warblade 15 or some mix of a dozen different dips doesn't necessarily make a difference.

I know those feelings can be a bit contentious, I've seen them drive some people apoplectic.  But, that's how my gaming group rolls and it works for us.  The one thing I will say in defense of approaching it this way is that otherwise you're left w/ those concepts that the game designers happened to think of and design well.

[/off topic]