Ask a Simple Question 21: Dunkadooballs!

[AndyJames]

I know how the real armours worked. In a d100 game I created, you can multilayer them just like in reality. My question is this: You are wearing a leather +5 and a chain shirt +1. What is your armour class? +7 or +9?

+5 leather is AC +7, +1 chain shirt is +5, so your AC would be +7. I'd suggest you step up to one of the mediums and reflavor it slightly, instead, however, to actually get a more accurate representation of what that means.

That is not the point. The point is that if we are looking at total AC of a piece of equipment, then a +5 dastana would add +6 AC to a chain shirt, not +1 and the enhancement bonuses of the two overlap. Either we stack the total AC of the equipment or we look at every piece of equipment as though it has two distinct AC values and pick only the highest.

There is no difference with a +5 dastana on top of a chain shirt and a +5 leather on top of a chain shirt (except that the dastana stack and the leather doesn't) in terms of calculating enhancement bonuses. If we look at the leather armour's total AC bonus (+7), then we must also look at the dastana's total AC bonus (+6), before deciding whether they stack with the chain shirt or not. If we look at components, then we'd end up with a +5 chain shirt either way.

It is one or the other. You can't have both.

[kevin_video]

Bump

Q 24 Question for the Monster of Legend template. Enhanced DCs are +4 to all creatures DCs. Does this include spells? Also, casts as a 5th level cleric with those three domains on list. How many total spells do you get for each level? Do you get the "+1" domain spells too? What about for ability modifiers (like if the creature had WIS 20)?

Q 30 Where can I find the "skeletal creature" template? It might be 3rd party, I don't know. All I got told was that it's stronger a template than the actual skeleton template from MMI.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Yes, as the cleric spell/day list, as cleric, and BoVD

[AndyJames]

Q 30 Where can I find the "skeletal creature" template? It might be 3rd party, I don't know. All I got told was that it's stronger a template than the actual skeleton template from MMI.

Savage Species, IIRC. Or Libris Mortis.

[kevin_video]

Yes, as the cleric spell/day list, as cleric, and BoVD

So this does include the +1 spells you get from domains? Meaning you're getting 5/3+1/2+1/1+1?

[Garryl]

Yes, as the cleric spell/day list, as cleric, and BoVD

So this does include the +1 spells you get from domains? Meaning you're getting 5/3+1/2+1/1+1?

Yes, domain spell slots are included in anything that casts (or rather, has spells per day) as a Cleric (such as Monsters of Legend).

[Mushroom]

Q 30 Where can I find the "skeletal creature" template? It might be 3rd party, I don't know. All I got told was that it's stronger a template than the actual skeleton template from MMI.

Savage Species, IIRC. Or Libris Mortis.

BoVD has the bone creature template
pg.184

[kevin_video]

Q 30 Where can I find the "skeletal creature" template? It might be 3rd party, I don't know. All I got told was that it's stronger a template than the actual skeleton template from MMI.

Savage Species, IIRC. Or Libris Mortis.

BoVD has the bone creature templatepg.184

I'm thinking the Skeletal template is a 3rd party. The bone creature is sufficient.

Q 31 Does 3.5 have a starfish of any kind? It can be an aquatic animal, or it can a monster. Either is fine.

[cru]

A30 there is a "skeletal dragon" template in Draconomicon

[TC X0 Lt 0X]

Q32
Can Spell-Like Abilities qualify for the PERMANENT EMANATION feat (Epic Handbook)?

[McPoyo]

I know how the real armours worked. In a d100 game I created, you can multilayer them just like in reality. My question is this: You are wearing a leather +5 and a chain shirt +1. What is your armour class? +7 or +9?

+5 leather is AC +7, +1 chain shirt is +5, so your AC would be +7. I'd suggest you step up to one of the mediums and reflavor it slightly, instead, however, to actually get a more accurate representation of what that means.

That is not the point. The point is that if we are looking at total AC of a piece of equipment, then a +5 dastana would add +6 AC to a chain shirt, not +1 and the enhancement bonuses of the two overlap. Either we stack the total AC of the equipment or we look at every piece of equipment as though it has two distinct AC values and pick only the highest.

There is no difference with a +5 dastana on top of a chain shirt and a +5 leather on top of a chain shirt (except that the dastana stack and the leather doesn't) in terms of calculating enhancement bonuses. If we look at the leather armour's total AC bonus (+7), then we must also look at the dastana's total AC bonus (+6), before deciding whether they stack with the chain shirt or not. If we look at components, then we'd end up with a +5 chain shirt either way.

It is one or the other. You can't have both.

The difference is that the dastana stacks its AC bonus, but the leather wouldn't. +1 chain with +5 dastana would be +10 armor bonus (4 chain, 6 dastana, enhancement bonuses overlap). Dastana are a weird niche case item, though.

I keep feeling there's something I'm missing in your examples that you are trying to point out.

[Agita]

I know how the real armours worked. In a d100 game I created, you can multilayer them just like in reality. My question is this: You are wearing a leather +5 and a chain shirt +1. What is your armour class? +7 or +9?

+5 leather is AC +7, +1 chain shirt is +5, so your AC would be +7. I'd suggest you step up to one of the mediums and reflavor it slightly, instead, however, to actually get a more accurate representation of what that means.

That is not the point. The point is that if we are looking at total AC of a piece of equipment, then a +5 dastana would add +6 AC to a chain shirt, not +1 and the enhancement bonuses of the two overlap. Either we stack the total AC of the equipment or we look at every piece of equipment as though it has two distinct AC values and pick only the highest.

There is no difference with a +5 dastana on top of a chain shirt and a +5 leather on top of a chain shirt (except that the dastana stack and the leather doesn't) in terms of calculating enhancement bonuses. If we look at the leather armour's total AC bonus (+7), then we must also look at the dastana's total AC bonus (+6), before deciding whether they stack with the chain shirt or not. If we look at components, then we'd end up with a +5 chain shirt either way.

It is one or the other. You can't have both.

The difference is that the dastana stacks its AC bonus, but the leather wouldn't. +1 chain with +5 dastana would be +10 armor bonus (4 chain, 6 dastana, enhancement bonuses overlap). Dastana are a weird niche case item, though.

I keep feeling there's something I'm missing in your examples that you are trying to point out.

I think the point he's trying to make is that if the Enhancement bonus to AC and the Armor bonus to AC are considered separate, then someone wearing a +5 leather armor and a +1 chain shirt should count the armor bonus from the chain shirt (higher than the leather armor's) and the enhancement bonus from the leather armor (higher than the chain shirt's).
So in the end, it's really just a roundabout way of asking if Enhancement and Armor bonuses on items are separate or not.

Personally, for some reason I was always under the impression that Enhancement bonuses on armor count as bonuses to the armor's Armor bonus, rather than straight Enhancement bonuses to AC.

[stranglebat]

Q33
If you feat leech an Expanded Knowledge feat do you get "Expanded Knowledge:That power" or can you customize on the fly?

[AndyJames]

I know how the real armours worked. In a d100 game I created, you can multilayer them just like in reality. My question is this: You are wearing a leather +5 and a chain shirt +1. What is your armour class? +7 or +9?

+5 leather is AC +7, +1 chain shirt is +5, so your AC would be +7. I'd suggest you step up to one of the mediums and reflavor it slightly, instead, however, to actually get a more accurate representation of what that means.

That is not the point. The point is that if we are looking at total AC of a piece of equipment, then a +5 dastana would add +6 AC to a chain shirt, not +1 and the enhancement bonuses of the two overlap. Either we stack the total AC of the equipment or we look at every piece of equipment as though it has two distinct AC values and pick only the highest.

There is no difference with a +5 dastana on top of a chain shirt and a +5 leather on top of a chain shirt (except that the dastana stack and the leather doesn't) in terms of calculating enhancement bonuses. If we look at the leather armour's total AC bonus (+7), then we must also look at the dastana's total AC bonus (+6), before deciding whether they stack with the chain shirt or not. If we look at components, then we'd end up with a +5 chain shirt either way.

It is one or the other. You can't have both.

The difference is that the dastana stacks its AC bonus, but the leather wouldn't. +1 chain with +5 dastana would be +10 armor bonus (4 chain, 6 dastana, enhancement bonuses overlap). Dastana are a weird niche case item, though.

I keep feeling there's something I'm missing in your examples that you are trying to point out.

I think the point he's trying to make is that if the Enhancement bonus to AC and the Armor bonus to AC are considered separate, then someone wearing a +5 leather armor and a +1 chain shirt should count the armor bonus from the chain shirt (higher than the leather armor's) and the enhancement bonus from the leather armor (higher than the chain shirt's).
So in the end, it's really just a roundabout way of asking if Enhancement and Armor bonuses on items are separate or not.

Personally, for some reason I was always under the impression that Enhancement bonuses on armor count as bonuses to the armor's Armor bonus, rather than straight Enhancement bonuses to AC.

That is precisely what I was saying. There are two ways to look at armour when talking about adding it to your AC:

1. The piece of armour is an item. It doesn't matter what that armour is, it is one item. Therefore, a +5 leather gives +7 AC bonus. A +1 chainmail is +6 AC bonus. If this is the case, then, because both are armour bonus to AC, they do not stack, but overlap. Therefore, your armour bonus to AC is +7.

However, if you take the case of the dastana, then a +5 dastana will give you an armour bonus to AC of +6. A +1 chain shirt will give you an armour bonus to AC of +5. The thing is, the dastana stacks with the chain shirt. You would therefore, end up with a total armour bonus to AC of +11.


2. If you look at the fact that base armour bonus and enhancement bonuses on an item is discrete and separate items, then you will get the following scenario: The +5 dastana will have +1 base AC bonus and +5 enhancement bonus. The +1 chain shirt will have a +4 base AC bonus and a +1 enhancement bonus. The dastana's base AC bonus stacks with that of the  chain shirt, but their enhancement bonuses will not. Therefore, you will get a total of +10 armour bonus to AC.

BUT, if you then look at the case of the +5 leather and the +1 chainmail, you get the following: +2 base AC bonus and +5 enhancement bonus for the leather, and +5 base AC bonus and +1 enhancement bonus for the chainmail. If they are discrete, then you are looking at a total armour bonus to AC of 10 (+5 base for the chainmail and +5 enhancement from the leather; since they are discrete items, it doesn't matter WHERE the enhancement bonus comes from).


Do you see the contradiction there now, McPoyo?




EDIT: While we are at it, what are good ways of getting Iron Will and Alertness? These two seem to come up again and again in qualifying for PrCs...

[Agita]

EDIT: While we are at it, what are good ways of getting Iron Will and Alertness? These two seem to come up again and again in qualifying for PrCs...

Iron Will can be recieved with the Othyug Hole magic location in Complete Scoundrel.

[McPoyo]

Gotcha, I subscribe to them not being separate (unless it's via magic vestment, but that's completely different). The point I was trying to make and did a bad job of, I realize, was in pointing out Dastana are a special niche case where they directly modify an existing armor's bonus, they don't have one of their own (ie, they don't grant you an armor bonus of 1 if you wear them with no armor), so any bonuses placed on them also count for the armor itself because they only modify existing armor as an accessory, not as a separate piece of armor. So that +1 chain +5 dastana example would be +10 armor (4 chain, 1 untyped to armor from dastana, 5 enhancement from dastana overwrites the 1 enhancement of the chain).

While not RAW, I've always told players they were unenchantable as a simplicty thing (I've also got players who will ask if they can enchant all the individual pieces of armor, so a +10 helm and +10 chestpiece and two +10 greaves, all with different plusses for +50 armor, etc attempting to use Dastana as a reference point)

[AndyJames]

Gotcha, I subscribe to them not being separate (unless it's via magic vestment, but that's completely different). The point I was trying to make and did a bad job of, I realize, was in pointing out Dastana are a special niche case where they directly modify an existing armor's bonus, they don't have one of their own (ie, they don't grant you an armor bonus of 1 if you wear them with no armor), so any bonuses placed on them also count for the armor itself because they only modify existing armor as an accessory, not as a separate piece of armor. So that +1 chain +5 dastana example would be +10 armor (4 chain, 1 untyped to armor from dastana, 5 enhancement from dastana overwrites the 1 enhancement of the chain).

While not RAW, I've always told players they were unenchantable as a simplicty thing (I've also got players who will ask if they can enchant all the individual pieces of armor, so a +10 helm and +10 chestpiece and two +10 greaves, all with different plusses for +50 armor, etc attempting to use Dastana as a reference point)

That doesn't work simply because only the dastana and the chai-whatever specifically allows stacking. Greaves and helms are integral parts of most armours. It is the fact that these two pieces of equipment allows stacking that makes them such pains to deal with.

I suppose that your rationale does make sense, except for the fact that the dastana specifically is an armour bonus to AC, not an untyped bonus.


EDIT: Been trying to avoid that one, Agita, since playing from 1st level generally mean you don't have time to spend in a hole for a week... That said... Oh, DM....!

[McPoyo]

True, the text says "armor bonus that stacks with the existing armor's bonus". I still stand by my interpretation, though. It's an enhancement bonus to armor.

[Agita]

EDIT: Been trying to avoid that one, Agita, since playing from 1st level generally mean you don't have time to spend in a hole for a week... That said... Oh, DM....!

Just do something really stupid and get imprisoned in the hole? Then the DM can make getting you out of the hole after a week a quest for the other players.

[Maat_Mons]

Personally, for some reason I was always under the impression that Enhancement bonuses on armor count as bonuses to the armor's Armor bonus, rather than straight Enhancement bonuses to AC.

Yes, an enhancement bonus stacks as though it is part of the AC bonus to which it applies (Rules Compendium 15).  So, if you wear bracers of armor +8 and a +5 chain shirt, the enhancement bonus adds to the chain shirt's armor bonus for stacking purposes.  You wind up with a +9 armor bonus, rather than +13.  However, see below. 

For example, say I am wearing a leather armour +5 (total AC 7) and a chain shirt +1 (total AC 6). Is my armour bonus to AC +7 or +9?

There is no difference with a +5 dastana on top of a chain shirt and a +5 leather on top of a chain shirt (except that the dastana stack and the leather doesn't) in terms of calculating enhancement bonuses.

There is a difference, in that the FAQ has an entry saying dastana work differently than the normal rules for stacking armor bonuses. 

It is one or the other. You can't have both.

It's an exception-based rules set.  You can have both because one follows the normal rules and one is an exception to the normal rules.