D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]

[woodenbandman]

Okay!  At long last, here are my new shapeshift rules!  For the most part, they're the same as the PHB 2, but I've added a few abilities to each form as they gain levels.  Also, I modified the four elemental forms quite a bit.  I included a new version of Natural Spell at the end.  One last thing of note is that your magical gear is still functional when melded into your form.  You cannot use items the require manipulation (like potions, wands, scrolls, etc), but other "passive" items still function.

That looks like trouble waiting to happen. It gets rid of enhancement bonuses, sure, but there's nothing stopping a player from abusing, oh, say, a suit of armor. Or Bracers of Armor.

[veekie]

It is however, much easier on the game than subtracting your items from the stats and then reapplying. Mostly you'd be tweaking the AC bonus from the forms I think, the large nat ACs aren't as needed when you have your magic items with their multiple AC types.

[RobbyPants]

That looks like trouble waiting to happen. It gets rid of enhancement bonuses, sure, but there's nothing stopping a player from abusing, oh, say, a suit of armor. Or Bracers of Armor.

Again, I'm not opposed to lowering some of the bonuses.  Do note that you won't get an armor or shield bonus to your AC, but you do get the enhancement bonus from magical armors and shields.  I guess Bracers of Armor would be the strongest at this point.

The reason I really wanted to allow items to work is because, frankly, I feel it's less abusable.  Which is worse: creating a system knowing that the PC can use magical items, or creating a system assuming they can't and finding out the the PCs strip down, shapeshift, and then put all their gear back on?  Either way, they're going to end up with those bonuses.  We might as well just plan for it from the start.  That, and we won't have so many cloaked bears running around.

[SiggyDevil]

The number or variety of bonus types is to blame, and explicit option in the rules to allow some bonuses to go untyped

[SiggyDevil]

Oh, and however Shapeshift variants would alter bonuses depends on how you'll want the benefits to stack.

Do you want a player to abuse a Shapeshift/race combination (unlikely) or a Shapeshift/more buffs combination?

The first option of Ss + race means Ss gives magic bonuses, which do not stack with other buffs but do stack with the character's race.
The second option of Ss + buffs means Ss gives racial bonuses (even though it's a magic effect) which do not stack with the character's race but do stack with other spells.

[RobbyPants]

I prefer the former, which is how it's set up right now.  By having it be an enhancement bonus, it doesn't stack with gauntlets, belts, and Bull's Strength.

I regret posting the version I did so hastily.  I think I should probably nix all of the save bonuses.  Perhaps I could keep a few of the Reflex saves, such as the aerial form's save.  I'm also fine with toning down the Str and NA bonuses a bit.  Again, I copied pretty close to the PHB2 version, which wasn't factoring magical items in.

Earlier forms, I think are fine as-is.  I don't see much reason to alter the predator form or it's aquatic counter part.
 
Aerial form is pretty good as-is, which is really just used for flight anyway.

I could tone down the bonus on the two slayer forms.  By that point, you're assumed to have some pretty decent gear anyway.

The avenger/horror forms are really used to gain your first good reach.  That hit to mobility will hurt, but this could easily be augmented with magical gear.  This one might need to be toned down.

The elemental fury form saw the biggest change from the PHB2 version.  Originally, the only difference between them was the eneregy resistance you got.  Now, the air elemental gives unparalleled mobility, and the earth form gives a different type of mobility (almost like blinking or short range teleportation).  I'm not sure if handing out the elemental abilities was a good idea or not.  At 18th level, I don't think they're overpowered, but this is a full-casting class too.

Midnight, how are you thinking about running testing?  Is this a simple test of levels 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20?  How are we going to pick challenges?  I can do my best to guess what shapeshift should and shouldn't include, but it will be tough to hone it in.  Should we work on spells a bit too?  That could have a big impact on this class.

[Midnight_v]

No idea yet... but uts sunday dude!

I'm resting...  :-[

[RobbyPants]

Also, Midnight, before we go on too far, I wanted to make sure we're all on the same page for the sorcerer.  I figure they'll keep the bonus feats at levels 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20.  I also think they should get something at 3, 8, 13, and 18 to match the wizard getting Skill Focus(Knowledge).  I'm thinking of giving them an extra spell known of any level they can cast, but it must come off of the sorcerer/wizard school.  I figure I'll drop the Surging Magic ability I posted oh so many pages back.  As was mentioned, tier 1 and 2 classes don't need boosts in their class features.  We'd have to seriously nerf spells to warrant that.

[AndyJames]

Personally, I give Sorcerers the following to help them vs the Wizard:

- bonus feat (any Heritage feat or feats tied to a specific bloodline like Blood Calls to Blood) at levels 1, 5, 10, 15
- free Eschew Materials feat at level 3
- ability to ignore material components of value 10x Sorcerer levels starting from level 4
- ability to ignore focuses of value 100x Sorcerer levels starting from level 6

[Kuroimaken]

- ability to ignore material components of value 10x Sorcerer levels starting from level 4
- ability to ignore focuses of value 100x Sorcerer levels starting from level 6

Shouldn't it be the other way around? Foci tend to be much more inexpensive in the long run than material components...

I figure I'll drop the Surging Magic ability I posted oh so many pages back.  As was mentioned, tier 1 and 2 classes don't need boosts in their class features.  We'd have to seriously nerf spells to warrant that.

My idea with surging magic was to avoid having Sorcerers PrC out for free metamagic abilities all the time. I figured it helped with fluff, too.

But if it's too good, it's too good, after all. 

[AndyJames]

Not really.

The most expensive arcane material component that I can think of off the top of my head is 250gp for True Sight.

The most expensive focus is 1500gp for Contingency.

[JaronK]

Animate Dead and Create Undead and such.  It's measured in cost per HD, so that gets MUCH more costly.

JaronK

[AndyJames]

Ah, those. I didn't even think about them.

Hmm... I thought free Stoneskins at level 10 was already fairly good. It is to encourage people to stay in Sorcerer, but if someone can get 100gp free by level 5 (for example), then most people would just PrC out from there.

Mind you, it's not like many people would stay in just for the cost elimination either... Hmm... Back to the drawing board.

[RobbyPants]

My idea with surging magic was to avoid having Sorcerers PrC out for free metamagic abilities all the time. I figured it helped with fluff, too.

But if it's too good, it's too good, after all. 

I really liked the idea at first.  I decided to drop it if we're going to axe the first caster level on full-caster PrCs.  At that point, keeping your caster level is your incentive not to PrC out.

[Kuroimaken]

I really liked the idea at first.  I decided to drop it if we're going to axe the first caster level on full-caster PrCs.  At that point, keeping your caster level is your incentive not to PrC out.

It doesn't mean we have to axe it, only possibly rework it.

How about giving Sudden Metamagics instead of Surging Magic? Similar effect, but more limited.

[RobbyPants]

How about giving Sudden Metamagics instead of Surging Magic? Similar effect, but more limited.

It could work.  Would we allow multiples of the same feat, to be used more than once per day?  If we hand them out at levels 3, 8, 13, and 18, it could work fairly well.

Also, would these increase the casting time like a normal metamagic or not?  Would Quicken be an exception?

[Kuroimaken]

Also, would these increase the casting time like a normal metamagic or not?  Would Quicken be an exception?

I'd rather not... I've always found the increased casting time for spontaneous metamagic stupid, anyway.

[RobbyPants]

I'd rather not... I've always found the increased casting time for spontaneous metamagic stupid, anyway.

I see why they did it in the first place, but that, combined with all the other nerfs (delayed progression, few spells known) show that WotC really thought spontaneous casting is better than what it really is.

I don't think I want to remove that, but I agree that each bonus Sudden Metamagic could be applied without increasing the casting time.  At 18th level, we're talking four times per day anyway.

[RobbyPants]

Lets talk full casters.

This is one of those topics that we've really not hit on at all.  We've been working to bring some tier 4 and 5 classes up a bit, but we've done very little to bring the tier 1 and 2s down in power.  All I've done at this point is nerf SoDs, nerf crowd control (perhaps too much), and fix some broken spells (probably the tip of the iceberg).

Now, we already have some casters that are roughly the power level we're looking for.  The Dread Necromancer and Beguiller are pretty good, with the War Mage trailing not too far behind (although the direct damage changes won't hurt anything).  It had been discussed to drop the sorcerer in favor of these three classes, but I'd like to avoid that.  I like the idea of having a general spell list.  The problem is that it's still pretty potent.

So I see two options here (or a combination of the two):

1) Keep fixing spells to get the tier 1 and 2s down to 3.  That could be really hard though. 

2) Remove the nastiest spells from the general wizard/sorcerer list.  You only get those spells if you take one of the more specialized classes.  Perhaps something like this could be worked in for specialist wizards too.  Now, we can do this by either altering the spell list, or by capping the wizard/sorcerer's casting at 7th or 8th level spells.  I'd much rather try the first approach, and just shave their spell list a bit.  I'm just not sure how much we can trim and still have 9th level spells left.

So, what are your thoughts on this?  This is a touchy issue, but I think we should start working soon at brining those top tier classes down a bit. 

Also, on a semi-related topic, if you can think of any more abusive spells or psionic powers, feel free to bring them up in the Spells thread.  That will also help in this endevor.

[JaronK]

I think the Wizards SHOULD get the most spells, especially pure ones.  And I think as long as 1 succeeds, we're okay.

JaronK