D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]

[Elennsar]

"They can do it because it would really suck if they can't." isn't an explaination.

[Midnight_v]

Nor should we have to repeat over and over again why, something sucking is bad.
I'm done for the night though. Good night, gentlemen.

[Elennsar]

It does not make druids suck that they can either be in bear form or cast spells but not both at the same time. Particularly since with 9th level spells, the ability in question is not meant to compensate for sucky ability elsewhere. (or of it is, WotC's idea of "sucky" is stupid.)

[JaronK]

Hey, it's the Elennsar/4ED thing all over again!

Elennsar: You refuse to look up the foundation, so you're not allowed to try to build the house.  Same issue as last time.  If you don't know about Shapeshift (it's PHB II, btw) then you can't discuss anything based on it.  House rule rebuilding projects of systems require extensive knowledge of the original system.  Without knowing that, you have no idea what to fix, and therefor any suggestions you have will be flawed.  The people working on this project, by and large, know a heck of a lot about the system and it's because of this that they can make decent suggestions.  Get thee to a book, and when you understand what we're talking about, then you can be useful.

Until you understand why this sentance is extremely stupid, you'll never be any use to anyone in any creative rebuilding project:  "but when you're proposing "hey let's modify this ability", then looking up what the unmodified form does isn't really useful."

JaronK

[Elennsar]

If someone proposes to make Diehard mean that you die at your character level + Constitution score (instead of -10) and that's it, then what does it have to do with anything what the feat-as-written does? Nothing.

Its a replacement of a replacement.

I'm perfectly willing to look at the foundation, but looking at the foundation for something is one thing, looking at a (Volkswagon) Beatle before it was rebuilt as a mini Hummer is rather different. Thus asking what the proposed form of the ability is.

Not "what the original is". What the we-think-this-is-how-it-should-actually-look form.

[SiggyDevil]

You gotta know the core mechanics before making new ones within the same system.

Otherwise, you're speaking a whole different language, and one we can't understand.

[Elennsar]

Siggy. Knowing that turn undead started out the way it did does nothing to assist understanding Robby's variant of it.

So, if the ability is "basically as written but with the ability to use spellcasting when in (other) form.", worth looking up. If it isn't, it isn't.

[veekie]

Back on topic, Shapeshift shouldn't outright lock you out of spellcasting, but it should note that normal somatic and verbal components don't work while in shift due to not having anything like your usual vocal cords or appendages. Then you can add Wild Spell as a +1 spell level metamagic which replaces Still/Silent Spell and maybe Eschew Materials for the purposes of casting while shifted, adapting your spells to work while in another form.

Heck, I'd make it work for casting in polymorph(post fixing of it's insanity) and other related effects as well, to make up for the loss of automatic ability to cast while shifted. As is, I think the automatic version as it is now makes it a no brainer feat, not so nice, since no druid will ever pass on it.

This version will keep some of the utility of still and silent spell, casting while immobilised and casting while silenced or where silence is important. All it does is adapt whatever the spell is to fit any form you happen to be in right now.

[Elennsar]

Sounds good to me. Makes it useful without making it quite so desirable to go around as a bear or whatever.

Free feat for druids, or having to be bought?

[JaronK]

You know, another useful idea was simply to keep Wild Shape, but have it not alter stats... Andy's idea originally.  It's my understanding that in the original playtest, they never used Wild Shape in combat (they thought it was too weak that way because you couldn't use gear!).  So, this would remove much of the major combat ability of that class ability, but it would still be useful for the natural weapons, natural armour, movement modes, and so on.  Really simple and effective fix.  Thoughts?

Elennsar:  Shapeshift is a massive change, too long to explain to you.  Read it, or stop trying to discuss it.  No one's going to type out the pages of material necessary for you to get it.

JaronK

[Elennsar]

Jaron: If it is "as written (in PHB II) except ____", then say so. If not, then say what the resulting form is.

Very simple. Very brief.

Bold text added for clarity.

[RobbyPants]

Wow.  These forums seem to light up about one hour after I go to bed!

So, shapeshift does not allow for casting, and because it's not "wild shape", you can't use Natural Spell with it.  I've had three thoughts on Natural Spell and shapeshift.  Each involves a different power level, but we might be able to pick something that works just right.  What are your thoughts:

1) Use the rule as-is: you can't use Natural Spell with shapeshift. (weakest)

2) Allow Natural Spell to work with shapeshift.  Unless the prereqs change, you can take this at 1st level. (most powerful)

3) Allow Natural Spell to work with shapeshift, but turn it into a metamagic feat.  Each spell prepared with Natural Spell applied adds one to the spell's level, but you can cast that spell when shape shifted.  This requires more planning, but may be a happy medium. (middle)

You know, another useful idea was simply to keep Wild Shape, but have it not alter stats... Andy's idea originally.  It's my understanding that in the original playtest, they never used Wild Shape in combat (they thought it was too weak that way because you couldn't use gear!).  So, this would remove much of the major combat ability of that class ability, but it would still be useful for the natural weapons, natural armour, movement modes, and so on.  Really simple and effective fix.  Thoughts?

I'd have to spend some time looking at various forms.  Would they still pick up the attack modes (claw/bite attacks)?  Would they get access to the Ex attacks (improved grab/swallow whole)?

It's a possibility, but I still have reservations about handing the MM to a player and saying "Here.  Pick something."  If they're not getting the things-PCs-weren't-meant-to-have from it, then maybe the problem's solved.

[ZeroSum]

Elennsar: If you know what the revised rule is replacing you have a better knowledge base for understanding whether the replacement was necessary, what direction the replacement pushed the power and what the designers considered (rightly or wrongly) as a reasonable power level.  There's a lot of information that you can infer just by looking at the two versions of an ability (current and rebalanced) next to each other.

[JaronK]

I'd have to spend some time looking at various forms.  Would they still pick up the attack modes (claw/bite attacks)?  Would they get access to the Ex attacks (improved grab/swallow whole)?

It's a possibility, but I still have reservations about handing the MM to a player and saying "Here.  Pick something."  If they're not getting the things-PCs-weren't-meant-to-have from it, then maybe the problem's solved.

Yes, they'd still get the special abilities, but without the stat bumps Druids (and Wild Shape Rangers) would have need for their physical stats and would have trouble getting as high.  I'd assume they'd still be able to use their gear in this case (to an extent, perhaps they keep stat bumps from gear, but lose the use of any gear that requires hands unless their form could manipulate it?). 

Sure, they still get a bunch of flexibility, but without the huge stat boosts that come with those abilities, it would be FAR more reasonable.

JaronK

[RobbyPants]

I'd assume they'd still be able to use their gear in this case (to an extent, perhaps they keep stat bumps from gear, but lose the use of any gear that requires hands unless their form could manipulate it?). 

I was about to ask you that before I read that sentance.  You'd certainly need those +X enhancement bonuses to your physical stats.

Reaslistically, allowing the use of gear just makes things quicker.  How often doesn't the druid just strip down before wildshaping, only to put all his gear right back on?  It's funny to think that the answer might have been that simple...

[woodenbandman]

I think that shapeshift should have different abilities, all available at first level, all viable, and they should all work with natural spell. They should scale over time, rather than having a crappy little boost a few levels later, when it becomes irrelevant. There should be a fast form for scouting, a strong form for hurting, and a defensive type form for defense-ing.

Each could start as a boost to a physical stat, and scale over time. Eventually (maybe at level 8 or so) they should start offering size increases/decreases, and then grant a few key bonus feats. I could make a progression sometime much, much later.

Of course at around 16th level there should be an ultimate form, or maybe a bit earlier a way to combine forms (kind of like the Okami system where there's a primary weapon and a secondary weapon), and you can add on natural weapons up to a maximum of maybe 1 primary and 2 secondary.

This would eliminate the druid's single attribute dependency. The bonuses should be low enough to require the druid to invest a bit in his physical stats to be viable as a meleeist. I imagine that this might work a bit like the Totemist class, but different because you'd have several pools to draw abilities from. If it seems complicated, it kind of is, but I imagine that it would work a bit like FFT because you can choose from a few abilities to give yourself. And completely eliminate wild armor, it's too great.

[Midnight_v]

I'd assume they'd still be able to use their gear in this case (to an extent, perhaps they keep stat bumps from gear, but lose the use of any gear that requires hands unless their form could manipulate it?). 

I was about to ask you that before I read that sentance.  You'd certainly need those +X enhancement bonuses to your physical stats.

Reaslistically, allowing the use of gear just makes things quicker.  How often doesn't the druid just strip down before wildshaping, only to put all his gear right back on?  It's funny to think that the answer might have been that simple...

Quicker... more intuitive too.
I'll give a rundown of why Natural spell should work while shapeshift if we're not doing "awsome combat forms"
Well.. basically that's it. You should be able to cast in anyform if you're not allowed to take awesome combat forms.
It's also fair then that we have an animal companion... if the spells are truly going to be *much* weaker.
Which... is yet to be defined but there it is.

Okay to the above poster...
Is SAD or MAD a bad thing?
Which? And why. In fact how relavant is it with the changes we're making scale of 1-10

[RobbyPants]

It'd be nice to get more feedback, but this wildshape variant might be just what we need.  Good job Andy for coming up with it, and Jaron for mentioning it again.  If we can't come up with a reason not to use it, I'll put it on the front page later.

As for the animal companion: I'm assuming if we replace wildshape with a weaker version of wildshape, there's no reason to nix the AC.  That being said, what did you think of Psychic Robot's version?  To keep things simple, here's a repost:

[spoiler]Animal Compainion

Animal Companion base ability scores:

12 Strength
12 Constitution
12 Dexterity
2 Intelligence
10 Wisdom
6 Charisma

Then the player gets to customize the animal companion.

HD: 1d8.
Attacks: 1 bite or claw or horn or talon, 1d6 damage.
Speed: 30 feet.

Size:
   Small: +4 Dexterity, reduced natural weapon damage size, -2 Strength, +10 foot swimming and flying speed (if it can fly or swim), +1 flying maneuverability category.
   Medium: No changes.
   Large: +2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -4 Dexterity, increased natural weapon damage size, -10 foot swimming and flying speed (if it can fly or swim), -1 flying maneuverability category.

Templates:
   Aquatic: Gains the aquatic subtype with a 30 foot swim speed.  The creature loses its land speed.  Choose another template to apply.
   Bestial: +4 Strength, +2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution.
   Burrower: +2 Strength, burrow speed equal to land speed.
   Hearty: +2 Constitution, +2 natural armor.
   Riding: +2 Strength, +10 foot land speed, two hoof/paw attacks (1d4 damage), quadrupedal.
   Swift: +2 Dexterity, +10 foot bonus to all movement modes.
   Flier: +4 Dexterity, -2 Strength, 60 foot fly speed with average maneuverability, -10 foot land speed.
   
As the character progresses, his animal companion gains bonuses to its Strength and Dexterity scores equal to 1/3 the druid's level, and it receives a bonus to its natural armor equal to 1/2 the druid's level.

The animal companion has Hit Dice equal to the druid's level.

At sixth level, the animal companion gains a second natural attack (1d6 damage for a Medium companion), or it can use its beginning natural attack twice in a round at a -5 penalty.

At eighth level, it gains evasion.

At eleventh level, the animal companion gains a third natural attack, or it can use its beginning natural attack a second (or third) time in a round at a -5 penalty.

At first level and again at third level and every three levels thereafter, the animal companion gains a special quality:

Agile Flight: Gains +1 maneuverability category when flying.
Constrict: 1d6 + Strength modifier points of damage on a successful grapple check. Damage improves by +1d6 for every six levels you have.  This can only be applied once per round.
Ferocity: Can keep fighting even when disabled or dying without penalty.
Improved Grab: As the standard ability.
Hold Breath: The animal companion can hold its breath for up to four times its Constitution score before needing to make Fortitude saves.
Low-Light Vision: The animal companion gains low-light vision and darkvision 60 feet.
Powerful Charge: Additional damage equal to 1d6 + twice Strength modifier on a successful charge attack. Damage improves by +1d6 for every six levels you have.
Rage: Gains a +4 bonus to Strength and Constitution, -2 penalty to AC, on its turn after taking damage.
Rake: Gains an extra natural attack automatically when grappling (1d4 for a medium creature). At tenth level, gains a second claw attack. Otherwise as the standard ability.
Quick Like a Bunny: +10 foot speed bonus to all movement modes.
Scent: As the standard ability.
Tentacled: Gains a secondary tentacle natural attack (1d4 damage for a medium creature).  Gains a +2 bonus on grapple checks.
Trample: As the standard ability, for 1d8+Strength modifier points of damage.  Damage improves by +1d8 for every six levels you have.
Venomous Strike:War-Trained: When using your animal companion as a mount, it is considered to be war trained.  In addition, the animal companion gains a +2 bonus to its Strength score.[/spoiler]

[veekie]

I like that version of Animal Companion, and it seems like the direction we're going with the heavily modified Shapeshift should be similar as well. Tailor made forms. Might of the Grizzly, Eyes of the Eagle, etc, etc,

As for equipment, how about just leaving their passive benefits(magic equipment of course, you'd need armor that's specially made to convey it's nonmagic bonuses) on when they meld into your form, while activated effects require a more human shape for them? It'd still need some fairly substantial ability boosts to do much in a fight, even then, but at least it's not trampling all the supposed frontliners anymore.

It'd save on the recalculations you have to do while shifting and all, and evades the problem of outfitting an animal-like form with bling.

As for Natural Spell, the existing version is kind of a no brainer feat, hence the metamagic version to make it an actual choice.

[Midnight_v]

I like meta magic natural spell. Even if there was no natural spell people could have been popping off still/silent spells  as a polar bear so metamagic  makes sense.

I don't like pysichic robots animal companion very much. Like i said its too remiscent of astral construct to me.

Though frankly whats the benifit of it. I like and dislike it actually I'm torn I'd have to build one to see if its actually "fair".

Immediately I see the "mole" burrowing ride-by-attacker being in there. I guess.

I actually feel more comfortable Dm'ing a relatively static as opposed to an iteration creature which will/coul grow in unpredictable ways.
 
We have to test it.

What is andy's final  change to wild shape? Sorry I think I missed it?