D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]

[Elennsar]

So much for that prank. Drat.

[AndyJames]

Like I said: Limitations.

[Elennsar]

Unfortunately, when those don't apply, the druid gets both of spellcasting (not to be dismissed) and wild shape.

To put it another way: The spellcasting being without the bear form still leaves the druid potent. Since most druids don't engage in extensive urban adventures, this isn't that dire a limitation.

[AndyJames]

Since most druids don't engage in extensive urban adventures, this isn't that dire a limitation.

Where the heck did you get that from??

[SiggyDevil]

Since most druids don't engage in extensive urban adventures, this isn't that dire a limitation.

Where the heck did you get that from??

Pff. BALOGNA.
Balony?
Bloney?
Bullshit.

[Midnight_v]

As for your quote...you care to point to where exactly I said that, as well as the whole statement, instead of some little sliver that can be mangled to suit your desire to be insulting rather than understand why I'm making the comment I am?

I could but I'm content to simply point out that you are indeed being a whiny hypocritical cunt even though you don't have to be and not some matyr who everyone misquotes or misunderstands.
I actually read all your posts and frankly you'd be a non-issue if there was an ignore button, but since your here contradicting good ideas with your shit ideas then you're actively bad for the project. Wait no ... not shit ideas  just some shit concepts like "The game should be this or that. example King Arthur instead of the justice league" Though I disagree with the whining most of all... Calling people "dick" and asking about politeness and really no one gives a ... yeah, you won't get disrespected if your ideas are actually good and well presented. Why? Because people are actually listening to you... much to my consternation.

But I digress...

No, it isn't. It's a "we do not want druids abusing wild shape so they get all the advantages and none of the flaws of being in 'animal form'." decision.

Does that mean that a druid should be forced to choose whether they want to wild shape or go about as human (or whatever) and that's that? No, no, no, no, no.

Should they benefit from the beneifts of wild shape (used unless the ability is also being renamed) and spellcasting at the the same time without a cost? No. 

Wildshape is different from shapeshift. Stop muddling the issue.
 We're not talking about wildshape.

Do you know what we're talking about? Shapeshift Variant, Phb 2 page 38. Please Review.

[Kuroimaken]

LISTEN:  If anyone has swift actions, then everyone needs swift actions. Classes DO get swift(and immediate) actions so everyone needs them otherwise they've already lost the econmy of actions game. Thus we've lost the Rebalance game. 

Hasn't every single fucking meleer lost this game already?

[Midnight_v]

LISTEN:  If anyone has swift actions, then everyone needs swift actions. Classes DO get swift(and immediate) actions so everyone needs them otherwise they've already lost the econmy of actions game. Thus we've lost the Rebalance game. 

Hasn't every single fucking meleer lost this game already?

Well not the Tob guys.
And not the ranger if given full animal companion progression.

So in answer to that question. Not perse.

Now what I'm saying is we need to make sure they don't all lose that game.

[Elennsar]

1) So, you're not interested in whether or not you're quoting me accurately, just in whether or not you can find something you can use to be insulting with. Understood.

As for contradicting good ideas: If and when you can show that, instead of saying "I disagree with you so and obviously my ideas are good and yours are bad", I'd love to see it. I don't recall there being a rule in this project that what Midnight thinks is a good idea shall not be contradicted and what Elennsar thinks is a good idea shall be disregarded.

If Robby has such a rule, he's neglected to mention it.

2) If and when the ability is renamed, I'll refer to it by the new name. Whether it works like the existing mechanic or not, if it is called wild shape, I will refer to the druid ability in question as wild shape. Not hard to understand.

Kuro: Yup. Unless he has an AC through the roof (without people hitting on 20s, which ruins things) and similar saves (without failing on 1, which ruins things), when everything else can pwn him from a distance he can't even react to, he's fucked.

Fucked like a school girl in hentai. Only with more blood.

No point having absolutely fabulous melee abilities if he can't get into position to use them.

[Midnight_v]

1) So, you're not interested in whether or not you're quoting me accurately, just in whether or not you can find something you can use to be insulting with. Understood.

As for contradicting good ideas: If and when you can show that, instead of saying "I disagree with you so and obviously my ideas are good and yours are bad", I'd love to see it. I don't recall there being a rule in this project that what Midnight thinks is a good idea shall not be contradicted and what Elennsar thinks is a good idea shall be disregarded.

If Robby has such a rule, he's neglected to mention it.

2) If and when the ability is renamed, I'll refer to it by the new name. Whether it works like the existing mechanic or not, if it is called wild shape, I will refer to the druid ability in question as wild shape. Not hard to understand.

Kuro: Yup. Unless he has an AC through the roof (without people hitting on 20s, which ruins things) and similar saves (without failing on 1, which ruins things), when everything else can pwn him from a distance he can't even react to, he's fucked.

Fucked like a school girl in hentai. Only with more blood.

No point having absolutely fabulous melee abilities if he can't get into position to use them.

1. No.
I know I'm quoting you correctly, but I don't have to prove anything because you consistently come into conflict with a mass of people.
You're ideas aren't shit because I disagree with you sir, your ideas are shit by consensus.

2. This is an example of your stubborn Ignorance. Not only are you being ignorant you also refuse to acknolwledge the actual topic.

Wildshape and Shapeshift are two different things.
If you're not up on at least the vast majority or available information, and you can't switch back and forth fast enough to keep up with the difference between major class ablilities. . . Or refuse to acknowledge the difference.
You have no fucking buisness here, not only do you not know what you're talking about your also being a dick.

Moreover...

2) If and when the ability is renamed, I'll refer to it by the new name. Whether it works like the existing mechanic or not, if it is called wild shape, I will refer to the druid ability in question as wild shape. Not hard to understand.

We're actually talking about a different ability entierly, so you need to go look it up to be able to contribute meaningfully to the conversation.

[Elennsar]

1) A consensus of people are more concerned with being insulting than accurate, it seems, if you are any example of it.

2) If it is called wild shape, then I will refer to it as wild shape. Whether it works differently mechanically or not is not being argued over. I would refer to the revised version of the ability in the paladin as lay on hands, same as the old, even thought it works differently, because it is still called lay on hands.

[AndyJames]

Point is... it ISN'T called Wildshape. It is called Shapeshift. Different ability.

[Elennsar]

Easy enough. So...what is the druid losing, if anything, by virtue of being in animal (or whatever) form?

Besides opposal thumbs and the ability to speak Common (etc.).

[Midnight_v]

1) A consensus of people are more concerned with being insulting than accurate, it seems, if you are any example of it.

2) If it is called wild shape, then I will refer to it as wild shape. Whether it works differently mechanically or not is not being argued over. I would refer to the revised version of the ability in the paladin as lay on hands, same as the old, even thought it works differently, because it is still called lay on hands.

1. No. I'm pretty sure I'm acturate, but really you're the only variable with 20+ people saying you "fail". I've never misquoted you, frankly.
2. It is not called wildshape.
It's not a revised version.
You're really showing your ignorance there.  

To anyone else. This is an example of why we should be extremely wary of Elennsar's ideas.

His knowledge base is inadequate and actively refuses to add to it.

Easy enough. So...what is the druid losing, if anything, by virtue of being in animal (or whatever) form?

Besides opposal thumbs and the ability to speak Common (etc.).

So I just page explainging that Wildshape isn't Shapeshift.
and now we're supposed to explain how shapeshift works differently?
 I told you 7 posts ago you needed to review it.
You being a goddamn stubborn ignoramus is why I insult you. Now I'm sure I'm accurate.

When you understand the difference between the two come back and discuss.

[Elennsar]

1) I'm pretty sure you're not. And since I'm the one who you're supposedly quoting, I don't think you get to claim higher accuracy here.

2) As stated: IF it is, then it will be called that. IF it is NOT called that, it won't. Very simple, very logical.

I am perfectly willing to add any knowledge I lack. I am not willing to refer to something by a different name just because the ability has been changed unless it has also been renamed.

[AndyJames]

It is not a rename. It is an Alternate Class Feature. So read up on it.

[Elennsar]

Quote:

Easy enough. So...what is the druid losing, if anything, by virtue of being in animal (or whatever) form?

Besides opposable thumbs and the ability to speak Common (etc.).

Because "hey I can cast spells" removes one major limitation of "hey I'm a deer" (or bear).

[AndyJames]

Do your own research, Elennsar. You are not in primary school here. There are no teachers to give you the answer when you get stuck or when you plain can't be bothered to look for it.

[Elennsar]

Nor do I expect this to be like primary school, but when you're proposing "hey let's modify this ability", then looking up what the unmodified form does isn't really useful.

So, what is happening after "hey let's tweak this"?

Not "what's the base ability". What's the resulting ability being suggested?

And how exactly does someone who can't speak beyond growls manage verbal components of a spell?

[AndyJames]

The answer is in the PHB. Look it up.