D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]

[veekie]

How about a full-round action, but he can only have one favored enemy at a time?

Sounds good to me, full round or standard works, the ranger isn't going to be using his bonus for attacking right that round.

[RobbyPants]

I think switching favored enemies should take a while... an hour, like the Warblade's retraining abilities.  He becomes one with the enemies he plans to fight, then he stalks and kills them.  Rangers are hunters afterall... it makes sense that they have to prepare a bit.

JaronK

I like this from a thematic standpoint.  Of course, this limits how well it can be used spontaneously, but it works well if you know what you're doing.

If we were to go this route, I'd say we could let the change be automatic (no Survival or Knowledge checks), and it would allow you to swap one of your favored enemies for another.

So, for example: if you're level 10, you've acquired favored enemy three times, which means you could have split it +2/+2/+2, +4/+2, or +6.  One hour of training would allow you to switch one of these, at it's bonus.  I imagine this would encourage people to primarily focus on one type to grant the biggest bonus at all times.  If you have the ability to retrain your favored enemy, you have less reason to spread yourself thin.

[SiggyDevil]

How about a full-round action, but he can only have one favored enemy at a time?

Sounds good to me, full round or standard works, the ranger isn't going to be using his bonus for attacking right that round.

Actually, I'd like to revise that proposal: make that a move action.

1 round, especially the first round, is worth everything in battle. To force Rangers to use that round just to focus would encourage them to pursue other tactics, or to only do so when in hiding before the surprise round.

[JaronK]

No way.  Then you've basically got Rangers always having the bonus.  They shouldn't... they're hunters.  They should have to get to know their prey in advance if they want the bonuses.  This doesn't mean they're weak without the bonuses, just that Rangers should be better when they know their prey.  Taking a long time to retune their bonus means they have to plan out in advance, and that's fine.

JaronK

[RabidPirateMan]

No way.  Then you've basically got Rangers always having the bonus.  They shouldn't... they're hunters.  They should have to get to know their prey in advance if they want the bonuses.  This doesn't mean they're weak without the bonuses, just that Rangers should be better when they know their prey.  Taking a long time to retune their bonus means they have to plan out in advance, and that's fine.

JaronK

If you slipped drugs in my drink to take advantage of me, I wouldn't report it to the police.

The basic idea behind the four full BAB classes were-  Fighters good with one weapon, Paladins good against evil dudes, Barbarians good certain number of times per day, and Rangers good against specific enemies.  I'm not against FE being more useful when its not Arcanist or Evil, but I am against Rangers being able to gain extra damage against anything.

I still like the idea of clumping FE groups together (what is so different between hurting Goblins and hurting Halflings?), but if we're talking about a mechanic to change FE choices, I'd go farther- maybe it takes a week of preparation; that way Mr. Ranger doesn't need two minutes of looking at a Chasme to suddenly forget everything about ogre anatomy and become death to all things born in the Abyss.

[Elennsar]

So use the chosen prey mechanic, where he's stuck with it for the duration of "the adventure", and can prepare for whatever he's facing -after- that adventure, but has to have some down time to do so.

[RobbyPants]

The thing I like about JaronK's suggestion (or at least the way I worded it earlier), it that it uses the existing mechainic and allows you to retrain given an hour.  I like that.  It's simple, and gives the ranger a boost in his power, so long as he has a rough idea what to expect.

Take the level 10 ranger I suggested earlier.  Per the PHB, you could split the three FE bonuses against one to three types.  You could have +2/+2/+2, +4/+2, or +6.  If you took +6, you could plan ahead and be really good against what ever you trained for.  This keeps putting all points into one type from narrowing your focus too much.  Even if you retrain, you still have to cope with random encounters and simple bad planning.  If you split +4/+2, two hours of training could allow you to fouc (+4) on what you think you need the most, and still have the +2 for something else you'll likely find.

Personally, I think this is the way to go.

[SiggyDevil]

Shifting bonuses might work. Go for it.

A week is far too long to prepare though. Once a hunter, always a hunter, so shifting from "stab giantish anatomy" to "stab fey anatomy" should really, truly, not take more than an hour (or day at most) to change over.

Another way to do it, and I'm hesitant to suggest due to some weird rules interactions, would be to set a cap for the ranger's hunting bonus; it increases with every kill, or with a Survival skill check if you prefer to extend the time needed.
They start off with no bonus but gain a +1 against specific types for every monster of a certain type they kill. The monster(s) must be of a CR at least as high as the ranger's character level to provide a bonus.

Once the bonus is capped, it can't advance until the ranger levels up again, again pushing the cap higher.

[JaronK]

Well yeah, I went with an hour because it's reasonable to do if you're planning something, and if you get jumped a few times you can switch over while you travel so you're ready next time, but at the same time you can't just switch on the fly.

JaronK

[RobbyPants]

A week is far too long to prepare though. Once a hunter, always a hunter, so shifting from "stab giantish anatomy" to "stab fey anatomy" should really, truly, not take more than an hour (or day at most) to change over.

I've been suggesting an hour.  It's long enough that it's a deliberate, out-of-combat action, but it shouldn't take a huge amount of down time.

[Elennsar]

ONce a hunter, always a hunter...and of course, even within say, animals, the anatomy and behavor of oh, lizards is rather different than birds.

Fey to giants...

Sorry. No. Not enough similiarities for it to be this easy.

A ranger who has been hunting orcs needs to get used to an entirely seperate set of variables when moving to demons.

Some things will carry over...that's why it's his overall skill that matters...but saying that he can "refocus" in an hour is unbelievable.

[Kuroimaken]

Some things will carry over...that's why it's his overall skill that matters...but saying that he can "refocus" in an hour is unbelievable.

You mean like priests raising people from the dead and the medieval equivalent to a bookworm bending reality over his knee like a misbehaved lolita hooker?

[Elennsar]

Both of those are using magic. Entirely seperate.

The Ranger is just a superhumanly good hunter.

Even if he's the best hunter EVER...the -differences- are still immense. That's my point. Switching from goblinoids to orcs...probably not a big deal. Switching from demons to fey or to orcs is switching between things with too little in common to make such an easy shift.

Magic specifically gets to do the literally impossible, because as best as we can determine it doesn't exist -at all- here.

The medieval equivalant of a bookworm with access to the keys that unlock the secrets of the universe. If it was just "a bookworm", there'd be even more wizards than there are in Thay and Halruaa or however it is spelled.

[RabidPirateMan]

OK, howzabout this?

Ranger over 20 levels take 5 races he freaking hates.  For example, Mack the 20 level ranger decides he hates Orcs, Elves, Outsider Evil, Undead and Whitey.

Over 20 levels, Mack gets a pool to divide amongst those 5 races.  He can put em all into one, or put em into all, or whatever he wants.  Switching this number takes an hour.

If he wants to learn how to hunt something different, say he suddenly realizes Elves were actually OK and Goblins were the biggest dicks on the planet, he needs to take a... day? week? of study to swap that out.

In a normal adventure, you have 5 races that you can chose.  If you suddenly realize there are ten billion zombies in this room, take an hour and put all your damage into Undead.  Not sure?  Spread as you see fit.  If you run into a bunch of other stuff, well, that sucks, but you still have spells, animal companion and regular feats to help the team out.

Once you're done with adventure, prepare for the next one by swapping out whatever the heck you want.  You realize you have a height problem and hate reptiles, so you swap it out everything for Trolls, Giants, Ogres, Dragons and Lizardmen during your downtime.

...Yes? No?

[Elennsar]

I think I like that. That way, within the groups you're "Familiar with", you can switch easily.

But to get used to a -different- set, you need some serious time.

Let's go for that. An hour to switch bonuses around, two weeks/the end of the adventure to switch what stuff you have there to begin with.

[Kuroimaken]

It's definitely a very good compromise.

[RabidPirateMan]

God dammit.  I should have put Robert Novak under favored enemies when I listed that Mack hates reptiles.

[veekie]

Hmm, I think the hour limitation should be enough, and consolidate some of the favored enemy types while we're at it. Taking a week to reset your choices is a little too much downtime needed I think, considering the only thing the rest of the party will be doing with that much downtime is pretty much crafting magic items. Take a full 8 hour rest cycle+1 hour meditation to reset the whole thing at most IMO.

[Elennsar]

No. No. No. No.

Rangers should not be swapping favored enemies so easily that "favored" means "enemy chosen to do well at today".

It should be something the character focuses on...with all the costs and benefits thereof.

If you say "I focus on longsword", should you be able to switch to greataxe in a few hours? No.

Same principle, only more so, here.

Casters may be able to switch what spells of those they know around so easily, but acquiring an entirely new set of spells takes work.

As for what the rest of the party is doing with that much downtime:

Oh, training? As in, keeping skills honed?
Resting?
Doing nonadventurous things?

The game should not be "the only limit on recharging is balancing it with everyone else." Characters should be in positions where a long or not so long break every once in a while is necessary.

[veekie]

Theres a difference between mechanical balance and verisimilitude though. What is fun should be a consideration as much as what is realistic, and besides, Warblades can already swap their weapon specialities around with less time anyway. Having to wait weeks for the ranger to reset his favored enemies so that hes useful next fight is not conducive to fun, particularly when the favored enemy bonus is not much to shout about anyway.

I could see a party waiting as long as the wizard would take to prep and obtain the appropriate spells before heading out, ranger ready or not. Thats not conducive to players of rangers.