D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]

[RobbyPants]

Hmm... One thing I'm desperate to add is "Surprise lunge" to that revision.

Yeah, I like that ability too.  I could see working it in.

Do you mind if I try to amalgamate the two?
If not do you think you could work surprise lunge into the above build.

Certainly.  Go for it.  I didn't think I got it 100% right this time, but I wanted to take it in the direction I thought it should go.  This is a colaborative effort.

I think Foil should be 11th level, switching places with True Grit. It's a very

I could see doing that.  9th level is high enough to keep True Grit out for dipping purposes anyway.

Either way, 20th level needs some awesome ability. For example, toss him a reach increment. I think he could get two reach increments, actually - reach is a very powerful thing and very "in flavour" for a Fighter. It makes sense that a more experienced Fighter can affect opponents further away by using weapons in a more optimal way. For example, 10 and 20 could get a 5' reach increment to the character's natural reach. This also sets a precedent for Epic Fighters to get a reach increment.

I agree with the idea of a good cap 100%.  I almost put a disclaimer in my latest version asking for advice on this.  I've yet to think of whaty they should get.

hake It Off seems just right for a Fighter - a great defensive boost that's not like to make Fighters broken, but does make them more durable in the face of magic. I'd personally make it a Standard Action - that allows spending a move the same turn to GTFO, since something like a Stun is like to put you in a very precarious position. Not to mention, jumping straight from a Full-Round to Move seems weird to say the least. Since the ability requires the Fighter to succeed a saving throw though, it seems just fine. Maybe give the Fighter increasing bonuses to the saving throw each time he tries to use the ability? Like +1 on the first, +2 on the second and so on? That would make it very possible for a Fighter to shake off spells cast by focused Wizards, but only given enough time.

I could drop it to a standard action.  The original full-round action write-up was due to the fighter automatically dropping the effect.  My first version didn't involve a save.  And you're right that it's a more logical progression to drop to a move action that way with the Greater version.

I like the cumulative bonuses too.  That way, the fighter can keep blowing action after action if he needs.  If the fighter is completely stuck by the effect, this gives him a better chance of getting out.  If he's only hindered, now he has to make the choice of whether or not to blow a standard action.  I think this is pretty balanced!

Well, in a fighter fix I posted over a year ago, that's what I did.  I handed out Weapon Aptitude at 1st level, and forced the first feat to be Weapon Focus.  If the rest of the class is good enough, this might not be a bad move.  Also, per the Skills & Feats thread, I'm wrapping the four focus and specialization feats into one anyway.

Do you have any ideas?  I know that Squirlloid had some in his version.  Also, perhaps expanding the fighter-feats could do this.  I know Rich Burlew posted several armor focus and specialization feats on GiantITP.

[Orion]

This may be a counter-productive suggestion, since we have two fighters to work with now, but if part of the goal is to put fighters on equal footing with wizards/clerics, then I wonder if some kind of magic-piercing attack might be appropriate? To my mind, a sufficiently skilled warrior should be able to just punch through magical protection because... well because he's that awesome, and for no other coherent reason than that. Would that be a high-level option worth thinking about?

[Kuroimaken]

This may be a counter-productive suggestion, since we have two fighters to work with now, but if part of the goal is to put fighters on equal footing with wizards/clerics, then I wonder if some kind of magic-piercing attack might be appropriate? To my mind, a sufficiently skilled warrior should be able to just punch through magical protection because... well because he's that awesome, and for no other coherent reason than that. Would that be a high-level option worth thinking about?

You mean like an attack-and-dispel thing?

[RobbyPants]

Yeah, I'm curious where you're going with this.
 - Attack-and-dispel like Kuroimaken suggested?
 - Each hit lowers magical AC by 1 (in some way or another)?
 - Able to bypass or weaken DR or magical origin (like Stoneskin)?

[Midnight_v]

 

but if part of the goal is to put fighters on equal footing with wizards/clerics

Nah it was to put them on equal footing with Warblades, Crusaders and Binders, Oh my. :-[

[RobbyPants]

I keep thinking and thinking of something to give the fighter at 20th level, and I keep feeling uninspired.  I feel that anything I think of is either too specific (i.e. not for every fighter) or just pointless.  This might sound stupid, but what if we handed out more than one feat at 20th level?  It's been the fighter's whole gig all along.  Maybe something like three feats to reward the progression.

The only other thing I've been able to think about is improving several of the other abilities we give the fighter earlier.

Edit:
Another thing we could work in at an earlier level could be the ability to treat any armor worn as one category lighter.  This would allow the fighter to run around in mithirl fullplate as though it were light armor.  I don't  have an exact level thought out, but I was thinking somewhere between 5th and 9th.  Depending on how we shuffle things around, the capstone could be something like Greater Shake it Off.

[Kuroimaken]

Mmmkay, let's see if I can help with a good capstone...

Hey, I got one to really screw the casters. 1/day attack-and-Disjunction!

[Orion]

I hadn't even formulated the thought that far. It was something that occurred to me as I was heading off to work. What I was thinking is that, somehow the fighter can simply bypass or ignore magical protection. Not dispel it (because only the fighter should be able to do this, and if she dispelled it, then everyone would be able to attack the magic-user), but instead, through some invocation of ultimate badassery just say "Fuck it!" and stab their sword directly through the magic. Past that... I have no idea how often they should be able to do this, or under what circumstances, or at what cost.

Would that qualify as a 20th-level class feature?

PS: I'm kind of influenced, here, by the idea of the Bad-Ass Normal

[Risada]

I keep thinking and thinking of something to give the fighter at 20th level, and I keep feeling uninspired.  I feel that anything I think of is either too specific (i.e. not for every fighter) or just pointless.  This might sound stupid, but what if we handed out more than one feat at 20th level?  It's been the fighter's whole gig all along.  Maybe something like three feats to reward the progression.

Maybe giving the ability to make 2 or more full attacks at a single turn, ignoring DR/Enhancement bonus to AC/whatever ?

[Midnight_v]

Fighter 20...

Once per encounter a fighter may take his turn as an immediate action. (exactly as decribed in the Eternal blade)
During that turn he may move his full movement and gains a full attack against any opponent he passes. ...

Kind of like one thousand cuts and island in time together.
...........
or...
Lord of War.
Once per encounter for 4 rounds
A fighter may activate this ability. During this time he is immune to nearly all forms of attack, aside from hit point damage.

He may ignore any non mundane effect that would impede his movement in any way. An actuall wall could stop him though any magic (force/stone) wall would be ignored and saw through as magic.
He is immune to all effects that require a saving through, as well as any condition listed in the condition summary in the Srd

During this time the only thing that can damage the fighter in any way is: hit point damage.
He is completely immune and/or may ignore all other forms of atack
If an effect is ongoing (cloudkill for instance) and the fighter is still in the area of said effect with his lord of war ability ends he may be affected normally, at that time.

Course... I'll have to write that in a conprehensible form.. uhm I'm hoping you get the idea.

You're forced to fight this guy, and nothings going to stop him from doing that.

[Elennsar]

So a natural wall of stone that's say, ten feet tall, can stop this guy.

A magical wall of pure force that cannot be sundered or broken in any way (I seem to recall there is a DC for sundering in the ELH, but..)

That doesn't make sense.

I don't mind the idea, but that "magic has no effect except hit point loss" is greatly unbelievable and possibly overpowered.

[Kuroimaken]

It feels to me like an ongoing Iron Heart Surge.

[Midnight_v]

*shrugs*

I'm just throwing darts hoping I'll hit something.

It is an ongoing surge yeah. Not to say that its broke or whatever. 4 rounds isn't that long. It'd need a lot of tightening as an idea. Still its a start. I figure if we just start posting capstones between all of use will hit something good. Or redfinable as good.
Sometimes it science... sometimes it's dice. . .

[RobbyPants]

Perhaps he'd be able to destroy varous on-going effects, like the Wall of Force.  I dunno.  I'm just thinking out loud too.

-----

I've still been trying to think of something worthy of a 20th level capstone.  I kept thinking of adding various traits form Weapon Supremacy, but there's already a feat for that available at level 18.  Some random ideas that were bouncing around my head included:
 - take 10 on attack rolls.
 - gain an extra attack on a full attack at the highest BAB.  Doesn't stack with Haste (or does it?)
 - immediately roll a second save if the first fails.
 - AoOs against you provoke an AoO (but only once to prevent some infinite cascade!)
 - All of your iterative attacks at your highest BAB.

Again, I haven't put much thought into them, but I wanted to get them out there for discussion.  Again, I think the taking 10 will be a waste if you can take Weapon Supremacy.

[RobbyPants]

Also, with all this "toughening" of the fighter, should we do similar things to the barbarian?  I know the barbarian gets compensation in different departments, but when I think of tough, barbarians seem more tough than fighters to me.

What things might we do for them?  Here are a few things I thought of:
 - Give temporary HP during rage.  Perhaps this replaces the +4 Con boost or stacks on top of it.  Perhaps giving 2 * class level temporary HP during a rage could toughen the barbarian up.  When he would get +6 Con, change this to 3 * class level temp HP.
 - Increase the DR the class gets to be useful.
 - Perhaps something similar to True Grit.  I don't know what yet.  Maybe it's just a solid Fort save bonus, making the barbarian tough as hell to poison, stun, or energy drain.
 - Maybe give them a slow progression of natural armor.  Depending on if this would stack with other sources would determine the pace of advancement.  If it stacks with other sources or natural armor, then it should progress much slower.
 - Fast healing during a rage.

I suppose we should get the fighter fully hammered out before we base other classes on it, but it's something to think about.

[Eldariel]

Eh, all PHB classes need a rewrite. Already the fact that no PHB class has proper capstones and only Druid is really worth going with all the way (and in turn, you pretty much can't multiclass away from Druid since it'll just stop all your abilities from being useful) pretty much proves that all the class progressions suck.

[Midnight_v]

Actually Both of the last two posts are right in my book...

I don't think we should NOT post something about another class, inspiration? Follow it.

Maybe we could give the barbarian the taunt ability. Thier offensive and have little respect for authority, outside of thier tribes.
I wrote somthing like that in the Consolidated barbarian handbook, I'm not sure where the quote came from off hand right this second.

You basically Fixed alot of the overt problems with rage right there.
hmm...
The fighter capstone ability is elusive. . . .
How would a 20th level fighter fight?

[Risada]

How would a 20th level fighter fight?

Slicing enemies to death? Locking enemies eternally in place? Tripping Big T as if it was nothing?

Dunno what else...

[Kuroimaken]

That depends on what weapon(s) he fights with.

[Elennsar]

Do we have any examples from fiction of someone who would be "20th level" to work from?

Most cinematic characters are in the teen levels, maaaaaybe late teens.

That's not to discourage 20th level...but it'd be nice to have an idea on "You are like _____." to look at to determine "what can a 20th level fighter do."