D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]

[RobbyPants]

If it's to be based on the PHB one:

-get the unarmed strike stuff sorted out (like if you can TWF/THF with it)
-it must have full BAB
-grant bonuses on Trips, Disarm and whatever the monk picked up
-make the spell resistance worth it (15+level is nice)
-increased the amount of healing with Wholeness of Body
-make the monk's hands gain an enhancement bonus to attack/dmg rolls
-change or (maybe) take out Quivering Palm
-change or completely redo Perfect Self

*look at what I write*

.... that's a lot of stuff  

Well, I think you're onto the right track with a lot of this stuff.  One thing that jumps out: Spell Resistance.

The one thing I've never liked about SR is how it gimps you from receiving buffs unless you spend actions raising and dropping it.  Now, before combat that's not so bad, but it can be a pain in the ass in the middle of a fight.

Monks already get Evasion, three full saves, and a good touch AC, which covers a lot of spells to begin with.  Someone suggested Mettle (and perhaps an improved version that we'd need to create), and I think that might plug the last hole (most of the way).  Some stuff still gets by, but with all good saves, you're not likely to fail one.  Plus, with the monk being as MAD as he is, you've probably got a good Dex, Con, and Wis anyway, further boosting your saves.  We might be able to drop SR all together, making the monk a bit more buff-friendly.

[Eldariel]

Monk's have a huge problem in that they can't really effectively use the combat maneuvers that "feel natural" due to the fact that they can't focus on any stat and have medium BAB. How about allowing them to use their Monk class level instead of their BAB for combat maneuvers when applicable? And giving them some ability that allows them to key some of them off Dex/Wis rather than Str? And giving them some ex tempore bonuses to boot? And giving them Kensai-like ability to enchant their unarmed strikes? I feel all of those are on the "to do"-list.

-I'm a long-time proponent of Standard Action Flurry. Gives Monks something to do with their speed + Flurry and makes Spring Attack do something (of course, it still needs a boost).
-I'd also give them Diamond Soul much earlier - since it's keyed off their Monk-level, having it early wouldn't make it much more of a dip ability and it would make the ability actually available in majority of the games. Level 13 is just too late for something so integral. Also, maybe give Monks Reactive Resistance as a bonus? I mean, the ability comes from their skill so they should be fairly good at controlling it.
-Also, few actually useful feats derived off Stunning Fist couldn't hurt (options don't break the game, but make it not-so-lethally-boring).
-Quivering Palm should be times per day, not times per week. And multiples, not once.
-Wholeness of Body working off Wisdom would do it. 1+Wis (min 1) * Monk-levels would be a much more reasonable number.

Oh yeah, and the AC bonuses could use some ramping up, especially early on when you'll be hardpressed to match a Ranger's AC, let alone a Cleric's or a Fighter's. Oh, and Perfect Self should give some alignment-based DR, and some such. And I feel Monk should get Air Walk (they get Etherealness for god's sake!) as an ability at some point.

[Risada]

Alright, let's see what can be done here (sorry guys.... no fluff or fancy table):

Monk

BAB: average (as Cleric)
Saves: good Fort/good Ref/good Will
Skills: same as PHB monk
Skill points: 6+ Int mod per level, X4 at 1st level

Class Features:

Weapon proficiency: same as PHB monk
AC bonus: +4 Armor bonus plus Wisdom modifier at 1st level, then +1 at every 5 levels (+8 at 20th level).
Flurry of Blows: same as PHB monk
Unarmed strike: same as PHB monk; add the following: the monk can use his unarmed strikes to fight as if he was wielding two weapons, incurring the normal penalties for fighting with two weapons and applying her full Strength modifier to the damage of all attacks.
Bonus feats: same as PHB monk, plus Dodge and Mobility (for now)
Evasion: same as PHB monk
Mettle: (at 2nd level)
Fast Movement: same as PHB monk
(Arcane resistance-esque ability): at 3rd level, the monk can add her Wisdom modifier to her saves against spells and spell-like abilities. (swaps Still Mind)
Combat Insight (Ex): starting at 3rd level and at every 3 levels thereafter the monk gains a +1 insight bonus on attacks of opportunity, Disarm, Grapple and Trip attempts. Additionally, whenever the monk succeeds at such checks, it may make a free attack againt her foe (at her highest attack bonus). This attack isn't considered an attack of opportunity.
Ki Strike same as PHB monk, plus the following: starting at 4th level the monk gains +1 insight bonus to her unarmed attacks' attack and damage rolls. This bonus increases by one for ever 4 class levels.
Slow Fall: same as PHB monk
Purity of Body: same as PHB monk
Storm of Blows: at 6th level, the monk can perform a flurry of blows while moving, as long as the distance isn't greater than her speed. The monk must move at least 5 ft before and after the flurry of blows. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the targets, but it might provoke from other enemies, if appropriate. (help on the wording here)
Wholeness of Body: as PHB monk, except that the number of hit points healed is equal to 1+ her Wisdom modifier times her monk level.
Ki Reinforce (Sp): starting at 8th level, three times per day, the monk can make a Concentration check as a swift action, then inbue her attacks with one or more weapon special abilities, based on the check result, as below:

Check result........Bonus ability
15 or below...........+1 total
16-25...................+2 total
26-30...................+3 total
31-35...................+4 total
36+......................+5 total

This ability lasts for 1 minute.
The abilities that can be used are: (help here)
Improved Evasion: same as PHB monk
Abundant Step: same as PHB monk, except that gained at 10th level and usable at 1 + Wisdom modifier times per day.
Diamond Body: same as PHB monk
--

My Font of Inspiration has dried up. I call upon your guys' opinion on this start and, if anyone is interested, at finishing this.... 'cause I'm gonna sleep now.

[Midnight_v]

I hate mettle on the monk... aside from that +1

I second the notion that monk should, get air walk... that nice.

[Orion]

Remain unconvinced and uninterested, because the idea of actually rewriting the game instead of putting a couple minor patches on it is scary or something.

I remain unconvinced because your arguments are light on examples, knowledge, demonstrations, and facts. Flinging out the accusation that I'm lazy and fearful is just childish.

Flurry of Blows: same as PHB monk
Unarmed strike: same as PHB monk; add the following: the monk can use his unarmed strikes to fight as if he was wielding two weapons, incurring the normal penalties for fighting with two weapons and applying her full Strength modifier to the damage of all attacks.

Given the relevant rule systems, this is basically the same as giving out Flurry twice: it's -2 to hit for an extra attack. They're especially similar given that you don't have to buy two fists. If you want to give the monk lots and lots of attacks, then just give them "Improved Flurry" or "Flurry II" or something like that. Off-hand attacks don't make a whole lot of intuitive sense for someone who can attack with her elbows, forehead, and shoulders.

Combat Insight (Ex): at 3rd level the monk gains an insight bonus on attacks of opportunity, Disarm, Grapple and Trip attempts equal to 1/3 her monk level (rounded down). Additionally, whenever the monk succeeds at such checks, it may make a free attack againt her foe (at her highest attack bonus). This attack isn't considered an attack of opportunity.

Way easier way to explain this is "starting at 3rd level, and every third level thereafter, they get a +1 to attacks of opportunity, disarm, grapple, and trip attempts." That way, it doesn't look like doing math. It's just 3, 6, 9, 12, etc. Trust me, non-math people do not want to divide by 3.

Storm of Blows: at 6th level, the monk can perform a flurry of blows while moving, as long as the distance isn't greater than her speed. The monk must move at least 5 ft before and after the flurry of blows. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the targets, but it might provoke from other enemies, if appropriate. (help on the wording here)

Proposed rewrite (I hope I understand what you're trying to say):

Storm of Blows: At 6th level, as a full-round action, monks can move between flurry attacks. The can move their base speed (the equivalent of one move action), and make one full Flurry attack. They must move at least 5 feet before and 5 feat after their first and last attacks.

(Is that what you're trying to say?)

Midnight: Airwalk makes sense, given the run-flying that happens in wuxia films. It'd have to be a pretty high-level ability, though. Somewhere in the mid/hight teens?

[Orion]

quote != edit

[Elennsar]

Orion: None of your points are supported by any more. If you'd like a longer explaination, then point to something that is unclear or insufficient without one, rather than indicating no interest in being convinced to begin with.

It is up for question on how much action movie characters "shrug off being hurt" versus not getting hit to begin with, I believe it generally leans towards the latter. (mostly because mook accuracy is abysmal)

[Kuroimaken]

It is up for question on how much action movie characters "shrug off being hurt" versus not getting hit to begin with, I believe it generally leans towards the latter. (mostly because mook accuracy is abysmal)

This argument you're making is essentially one of a "definition of HP" nature. It's no different for monks than it is for any other D&D character. I believe the DMG has a definition of what HP actually represents.

That said, HP definition is fluff. It is, effectively, immaterial to this debate (once my DM said he wanted to make a campaign in which the definition of HP was how many times you could be killed and regenerate instantly. Mechanically the same thing, fluff-wise very different. No one would actually HAVE the ability to regenerate - that'd be the excuse for how HP works).

Now back to the grindwork.

Combat Insight (Ex): at 3rd level the monk gains an insight bonus on attacks of opportunity, Disarm, Grapple and Trip attempts equal to 1/3 her monk level (rounded down). Additionally, whenever the monk succeeds at such checks, it may make a free attack againt her foe (at her highest attack bonus). This attack isn't considered an attack of opportunity.

Hmmm. There's only one tiny little problem I see here.

Disarm, Grapple and Trip attempts are all based off size differences. There are actually very few Medium-sized opponents to contend with - most bruisers are actually at least Large. So an 18th level monk that went up against a Large opponent would actually only benefit from a +2 bonus, for example. If his opponent were to be Huge (the maximum size he CAN grapple save for your friendly Enlarge buffs) he'd still be at a disadvantage (a minor one but still a disadvantage).

And while typing this, I just had an idea for one of the monk's more... mystical abilities.

Fighting Spirit (Su): by focusing his inner spirit, the monk can project his will to fight outward in a tangible way, which manifests as a ghostly, larger image of himself. The monk is considered to be under the effects of Enlarge Person while using this ability (with caster level equal to the monk's level), except for the increased weight. This ability is usable 1+Wis modifier times per day.

(Tung Fu Rue, eat your heart out.)

This would probably be an ability for around 10th or 12th level. Thoughts?

EDIT: Another idea that came to me. Martial arts masters often have good advice to give people in movies, and they seem more capable of convincing them than most (despite often living in seclusion for many years). So this ability came out of that thought.

Words of Wisdom: The monk's serenity and peace of mind translate into thoughts as well as actions. A monk of Nth level (5th?) may use his Wisdom modifier instead of Charisma when using Charisma-based skills and making Charisma-based skill checks.

[Elennsar]

Not really, no. Most games have hit points represent "how much you can withstand being hurt". D&D, for some bizzare and inexpicable reason, mixes this with "how much you can avoid being hurt".

As to monks:

I like Words of Wisdom. As for Fighting Spirit...I am tempted to suggest "Righteous Might" instead of Enlarge Person, to be honest. Otherwise the same.

[RobbyPants]

Alright, let's see what can be done here (sorry guys.... no fluff or fancy table):

Monk
<snip>

Nice!  I like a lot of what you did here.  A few thoughts:

BAB: average (as Cleric)
...
Combat Insight (Ex): at 3rd level the monk gains an insight bonus on attacks of opportunity, Disarm, Grapple and Trip attempts equal to 1/3 her monk level (rounded down). Additionally, whenever the monk succeeds at such checks, it may make a free attack againt her foe (at her highest attack bonus). This attack isn't considered an attack of opportunity.

I was going to complain about the 3/4 BAB until I saw that Combat Insight works with grapple checks.  So, a quick rundown comparison level-by-level with a full BAB class gives us:

Full  3/4 BAB +
BAB   Combat Insight
____________
1     0     
2     1     
3     3    
4     4     
5     4     
6     6    
7     7     
8     8     
9     9     
10    10     
11    11     
12    13     
13    13     
14    14     
15    16     
16    17     
17    17     
18    19     
19    20     
20    21     

So if I did that right, the monk's raw grapple mod (pre Str score) would be behind a full BAB grappler for the first two levels, then it would be roughly even or behind until level 5.  After level 5, the monk is as good or better.  Nice!

AC bonus: +4 bonus at 1st level, then +1 at every 5 levels (+8 at 20th level)

Is this an Armor bonus (so as not to stack with Bracers of Armor)?  Does the monk still add his Wis mod to AC?

Unarmed strike: same as PHB monk; add the following: the monk can use his unarmed strikes to fight as if he was wielding two weapons, incurring the normal penalties for fighting with two weapons and applying her full Strength modifier to the damage of all attacks.

I like this.  It allows for extra attacks and super power attacks where you want them.  Of course, I think people would opt for the two-hand attacks more often than two-weapon attacks.  Can you flurry when using your attacks as a two-handed attack?

Evasion: same as PHB monk
Mettle: (at 2nd level)

I was thinking of handing out Mettle at a different level, but then I saw that you added some arcane resiliance ability.  I see why M_V doesn't like Mettle, but I think that and your arcane resiliance allow for a nice way to drop the Spell Resistance.

Also, if you're looking for names, we could always move Diamond Soul to 3rd level and have it grant the arcane resiliance-like ability you created.

Storm of Blows: at 6th level, the monk can perform a flurry of blows while moving, as long as the distance isn't greater than her speed. The monk must move at least 5 ft before and after the flurry of blows. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the targets, but it might provoke from other enemies, if appropriate. (help on the wording here)

Alternate wording could work as follows:

As a full round action, you may move up to your base land speed while performing a Flurry of Blows.  You may move in between each attack.  You must move at least five feet before your first attack and at least five feet after your last attack.

How's that sound?

[Midnight_v]

Perfect Self (su):
At 20th level you have reached a level of mental, spritual, and physical perfection. Some call it "transcendance", or "enlightenment" but ultmately you have reached a level of "oneness" with the universe that has allowed you to shed your mortal constraints. This manifests in a variety of ways.
Your type changes to:Outsider (Lawful)
You are no longer on the path, but you are instead of the path.Dr 10/Chaotic and silver.
The Glow
You radiate light as a torch to a radius of 60ft (you may supress this ability at will.) This effect may only be dispelled by a  darkness spell of 7th level or higher.
Awe of perfectionSuperior Spell Resistance.
 Anyspell or spell-like ability that fails to overcome your spell resistance is immediately turned upon the caster, as per the spell turning spell. This ability is always active but costs an immediate action to utilize. (i.e. If you have already used you immediate or swift action for the round this effect will not activate)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay well that's my first working of the capstone ability.
And yes I know It'll will look simpler If I write Awe of perfection: you are under the effects of a permanent "Sacntuary" spell. I wrote it this way to save you the trouble of looking it up.
2. Risada: The abilities that can be used are: (help here) All melee abilities need to be available here, It lets it be situational and good. Also did you make sure that was usable "once per encounter?" it should be.
   2b. Or...I think It would be better to give them an untyped scaling force effect on thier punches similar to the dragon fist acf. I mean we use your scale but instead they get a d6 damage for every X this damage is force and formless but can come into existance as a colored energy at the whim of the player. "A slick sheen, a black flame" whatever its still just force d6's
3.

Storm of Blows: At 6th level, as a full-round action, monks can move between flurry attacks. The can move their base speed (the equivalent of one move action), and make one full Flurry attack. They must move at least 5 feet before and 5 feat after their first and last attacks.

Iteresting but I don't like the name, maybe cause I rember the original kensai ability and figure that discribes something that lands on one person at a time. Still this is great.

4. I wish to ensure that eventually he can combine Abundant step with Storm of blows.
This will require rewording of abundant step and making it a lesser action to use.

5. The other thing I'd like to work out is a better way for ethrealness to work, allowing them to attack as incorpreal cratures.
 I desperately want to give these guys the ability to planeshift twice a day. I just dont' know where to fit it.

Laslty, if not "Air Walk" then Swift fly as a spell-like at will immediate action. This replaces slow fall 50ft. Because no one everuses slowfall 50ft, also at that point you have a 60ft movement and fly swift is just better. Then we can put other things in instead of slow fall.

[RabidPirateMan]

M_v-

If we are going to use other classes that have 'free template' abilities as their last-level bonus, I think we should make sure we have a ballpark estimate of how powerful they are.  Dread Necros get a +4 LA template, Dry Liches get a +5, Dragon Disciples get a +3 template... So does your template work out to an average of a +4?

I've calculated it out as somewhere around 3.5, but changing type didn't affect the score at all.  Otherwise, cool stuff.

Risida- I like a lot of it   One or two questions though;  First, the replacement for Still Mind if very powerful now.  Would you think bumping it up would be a bit better?  The monk seems very top heavy at the moment (I'd put it somewhere along a 1/3/6 level dip).  If it was like the Paladin, I'd say its fine, but the monk already has good saves.  Maybe wrap it in with Diamond Body?

Also, the AC bonus- why not just Wis to AC?  Wis is not keyed of a handful of abilities instead of one or two.  In a normal 30 point buy, it'd make sense to keep it up to 16, so why remove it?  This also makes the Monk very top heavy.  I'm guessing this bonus is removed when you wear armor?

Abundant Step is keyed of Wisdom.  I don't understand that- what does wisdom have to do with the ability?  Why not Dex?

I love Combat Insight!

[RobbyPants]

Abundant Step is keyed of Wisdom.  I don't understand that- what does wisdom have to do with the ability?  Why not Dex?

I guess I can't answer for Risada, but it seems like the choice depends on the flavor.  Wis makes sense if you picutre Abundant Step to be mystical Kung Fu.  Dex makes sense if you picture the monk moving supernaturally fast.

[Midnight_v]

Abundant Step is keyed of Wisdom.  I don't understand that- what does wisdom have to do with the ability?  Why not Dex?

I guess I can't answer for Risada, but it seems like the choice depends on the flavor.  Wis makes sense if you picutre Abundant Step to be mystical Kung Fu.  Dex makes sense if you picture the monk moving supernaturally fast.

I vote wisdom...

Fantasy literature's view of the "martial artist" has about as much to do with a real martial artist as its view of salamanders has to do with real salamanders. But let's face the facts: Monks are totally sweet. They flip out and kill people with their hands. . QFT

[Kuroimaken]

I like Words of Wisdom. As for Fighting Spirit...I am tempted to suggest "Righteous Might" instead of Enlarge Person, to be honest. Otherwise the same.

Considering that Righteous Might provides a couple more bonuses than Enlarge Person (and it's a bit more appropriate in level as well), I'd take the suggestion. Honestly, I picked Enlarge Person because I thought it gave you more size cathegories than just Large.

[Midnight_v]

M_v-

If we are going to use other classes that have 'free template' abilities as their last-level bonus, I think we should make sure we have a ballpark estimate of how powerful they are.  Dread Necros get a +4 LA template, Dry Liches get a +5, Dragon Disciples get a +3 template... So does your template work out to an average of a +4?

I've calculated it out as somewhere around 3.5, but changing type didn't affect the score at all.  Otherwise, cool stuff.

Risida- I like a lot of it   One or two questions though;  First, the replacement for Still Mind if very powerful now.  Would you think bumping it up would be a bit better?  The monk seems very top heavy at the moment (I'd put it somewhere along a 1/3/6 level dip).  If it was like the Paladin, I'd say its fine, but the monk already has good saves.  Maybe wrap it in with Diamond Body?

Also, the AC bonus- why not just Wis to AC?  Wis is not keyed of a handful of abilities instead of one or two.  In a normal 30 point buy, it'd make sense to keep it up to 16, so why remove it?  This also makes the Monk very top heavy.  I'm guessing this bonus is removed when you wear armor?

Abundant Step is keyed of Wisdom.  I don't understand that- what does wisdom have to do with the ability?  Why not Dex?

I love Combat Insight!

Wait are you saying its too weak? W...t...h...

[RabidPirateMan]

[Midnight_v]

You do know that the dread necromancer doesn't actually get the lich template, right?

I'm thinking you don't know that. 

Iirc they don't.

[AfterCrescent]

Actually they do get the Lich template at level 20. So you recall incorrectly.

[JaronK]

Yes, they do indeed get the full on Lich template.  Very handy.

JaronK