D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]

[veekie]

One thing I like to consider with the aligned domains though. The elemental domains can turn elemental creatures and their opposite, and the same is nicely appropriate for alignments as well. However, having an outsider leashed to a cleric via rebuking...

[RobbyPants]

The tricky thing about this is that I am not familiar with your pantheons dogmas, beyond the obvious the deity's personality may help shed some light adding more detail to what abilities would be appropriate.

At this point, I want to keep it fairly generic, and focus on the domains themselves.  I'll leave creating deities and even modifying domains to match them up to individual DMs.

One thing I like to consider with the aligned domains though. The elemental domains can turn elemental creatures and their opposite, and the same is nicely appropriate for alignments as well. However, having an outsider leashed to a cleric via rebuking...

The version I posted took that out, but I suppose it could always be added back in.  I never really like turning/rebuking elementals, but that's just a personal opinion.

[veekie]

The natural problem of keeping the game sane with outsiders and elementals under PC control might favor leaving them out entirely though.

[RobbyPants]

I was talking to ZanKhellendros on the phone about the domain powers.  He made a good point.  Perhaps each domain should have a special use for Turn Undead attempts.

After rethinking it, the new Turn mechanic might work fine for outsiders and elementals.  So, an elemental or aligned domian could use a Turn attempt to heal their subtype or to deal damage to the opposing subtype.  Thematically, I think that makes sense.  I can see a water cleric harming fire creatures with divine energy.

Now, coming up with turn uses for other domains could be hard.  Just off the top of my head:

Trickery - ability to score critical hits on undead for one round or one minute.  Maybe this works on all creatures immune to crits.

Plant - heal plant creatures.

Magic - grant spell resistance?  Maybe use a turn attempt as a readied action to counter a spell with opposed CL checks?

Destruction - damage objects and constructs.

Healing - focused healing on a single target (instead of a burst).  2d6 points per cleric level?

Death - focused damage to a single living target (instead of a burst). 2d6 per cleric level?  Maybe this is a bit much.

[ZanKhellendros]

Oh man , I like this, what you already have is good.
You still want other ideas on top of some alternative turning types right?
 

[veekie]

Trickery, I see it as granting concealment, that possibly upgrades to invisibility/nondetection. Magic, reflect/absorb spells? The SR thing seems more fitting as a constant power.

Plant could use a Control Plants/Plant Growth/Entangle like power as well, turning plants is a bit weaker than the others, since they aren't that common as foes, usually not powerful foes, and theres no opposed thing to burn with the turn.

[RobbyPants]

Yeah, I'm still looking for more ideas.  I appreciate any you guys come up with.

I can see trickery granting concealment.

Also, some of these (such as plant) can be weaker and have the compensated for by giving better static abilities.

Do we want to try to replace abilities like Death's touch ability with the new turn mechanic?

[ZanKhellendros]

Do we want to try to replace abilities like Death's touch ability with the new turn mechanic?

Why replace it, I like it. I think you can add more to the class still.

[ZanKhellendros]

You mentioned your cleric spell list and that you had made some changes, did you post those here yet?
Did you want to go more then 4 spells per domain spell level? You were wondering if 4 was enough with some of the less powerful ones and I thought adding a few more couldnt hurt.
Also wondering if some spells could be from druid or other spell list, I'm sure it is but wanted to ask, like I found Heal Animal Companion spell in the Spell Compendium and thought if your animal domain granted an animal companion that would be a cool spell, its 5th lvl druid 3rd lvl ranger. I've been working on the list you emailed me, should post some later tonight if I get the chance.

[RobbyPants]

I've been too busy lately to do any work straight out of the books.  At this point, I haven't posted anything new in terms of a Cleric spell list.

I am fine with using non-cleric spells to create the domains.  Even the core domains did that to some extent.

As far as expanding beyond 4 spells per level, it might be doable.  I'm having trouble getting four spells for some domains.  If the number of spells per level and/or per domain is inconsistant, I'll have to make up with that by granted powers.  The spells granted by the domains are more inportant than they were before because they are actually added to the cleric's list of known spells.  Instead of getting one domain slot per level per day this simply makes him much more vestatile.

[ZanKhellendros]

So your telling me that finishing the granted powers should come before finalizing the domain spells so that in all respects they are balanced, which is the point of the thread and makes perfect sense, I'll come up with some more granted powers before diving into the spells lists. If you have decided on any of the granted powers suggested so far let me know, I'll keep messing around.

Oh, and having a new baby around does make for a more complicated day, now you know how I felt when I had to stop playing for a while (other then the fact that my ex wife was insane   ) 

[Midnight_v]

Okay so ... you two know each other Irl?

I may be missunderstanding you here....

So your telling me that finishing the granted powers should come before finalizing the domain spells

I hope thats what he's saying (thats what I'm reading) because he'd be absolutely freaking right!

Things need to be changed 1 variable at a time. Hello scientific method. Get the domains grants down then, decide where it goes from there immidiately after. Thus you can actually balance them ... in all respects.
Otherwise you're painting in the dark.
Thoug I apologize if I simply managed to fail my detect sarcasm roll.

[ZanKhellendros]

Okay so ... you two know each other Irl? 

Yes, family actually.

I may be missunderstanding you here....

So your telling me that finishing the granted powers should come before finalizing the domain spells ... " so that in all respects they are balanced, which is the point of the thread and makes perfect sense " 

I apologize if I simply managed to fail my detect sarcasm roll.

(and your is suppose to be you're, my bad, I hate it when people misuse that)

Yes you simply managed to fail your detect sarcasm roll  .  But my own mother still does that with me, its hard to tell. The Pants is one of the only people who knows when I'm being sarcastic and even then not always. Sorry bout that, my DC is way to high 

I wanted to be clear about what we should be working on, he has a lot of stuff posted and I would like to be constructive with my time.

[RobbyPants]

I guess I'm fine working on domain powers first and spells second.  I think it's less work up front.  Also, I think I might get more inspiration on the spell list with a collection of completed powers sitting in front of me.

Okay so ... you two know each other Irl?

Yeah.  We've been gaming together close to 15 years now.  I'd probably say over 75% of the gaming I've done has been with him.  Best man at my wedding.  All that fun stuff.

edit
You guys both have awesome sigs.  Now I feel like I need to work in an OOTS quote myself... 

[RobbyPants]

Was skimming the Barbarian, and I think Improved Mettle is too good an ability for anyone to have. Many Fort or Will Partial effects have virtually no effect on a successful save; this make such a character nearly immune to an enormous range of abilities. I think, anyway. Has there been an argument about this already that I missed? If so, a reference to it might be easier than retyping why I'm wrong if it's already been shown.

I'm not sure this actually got discussed when I posted it.  You are right in that it negates a huge amount of things that hurt the barbarian.  Do note that this only works while the barbarian is raging.  Of course, once the fight starts, the barbarian will probably already be raging (why not? It's per encounter now), but he still is vulnerable to effects outside of combat, such as traps and ambushes.

Still, what would you prefer seeing in its place?  A per encounter or per round reroll of Fort and Will saves?  Something else?  Does anyone else have thoughts on the matter?

[Midnight_v]

Was skimming the Barbarian, and I think Improved Mettle is too good an ability for anyone to have. Many Fort or Will Partial effects have virtually no effect on a successful save; this make such a character nearly immune to an enormous range of abilities. I think, anyway. Has there been an argument about this already that I missed? If so, a reference to it might be easier than retyping why I'm wrong if it's already been shown.

I'm not sure this actually got discussed when I posted it.  You are right in that it negates a huge amount of things that hurt the barbarian.  Do note that this only works while the barbarian is raging.  Of course, once the fight starts, the barbarian will probably already be raging (why not? It's per encounter now), but he still is vulnerable to effects outside of combat, such as traps and ambushes.

Still, what would you prefer seeing in its place?  A per encounter or per round reroll of Fort and Will saves?  Something else?  Does anyone else have thoughts on the matter?

Frankly and flat out, I say it's fine.
It's okay to be resistant to random bullshit at high levels. In fact you NEED to be or at least someone needs to pervent the easy answer of: "Look a fighter, make a will save! = Owned fighter(melee-ist rather).
I don't think the "luck rerolls" belong in that class.

[Bauglir]

Probably depends. I object mostly because I'm of the mind that, in most cases, nobody should be flat-out immune to anything (a few exceptions, such as mindlessness, make sense). If you're planning on letting casters keep their existing crazy defenses, or even some of them, then it's perfectly fine. Nowhere near unbalanced, in that case. Otherwise, it might be a little too good; it solves the problem of save-or-dies and save-or-sucks for the Barbarian only. Although if you're fixing those spells, too, then it goes back to probably being balanced since it won't be such a huge element of optimized gameplay.

[Midnight_v]

  So far, collectively we've decided to hang on to "blanket immunities" as they exist now (thankfully) you can see the jist of that discussion reading the "spells" thread.
  Things that already exist don't need to be completely overhauled just nudged a bit overall. Everyone will have some actual defensive measures vs magic or spell likes or whatever, this will vary I'm sure. Ultimately though I look at the Tome of Battle as a balancing pin with the Bard thrown in as well as they exist today. Trying to get things to that general level of usefulness and playability. Hmm... gtg girls here 

[ZanKhellendros]

I've always felt the Barbarian would be more resistant to mind effecting stuff while berserk, I like that about this upgrade.

[RobbyPants]

I've started a new thread, as this one has gotten to be 76 pages.  Here's the link:

Core Classes 2