D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]

[RobbyPants]

I was thinking a full progression.

So you're advocating one or the other, and either way the druid gets full casting.  That could work.  It's certainly an easy ACF.  Does anyone else have any thoughts on the matter?

[Kuroimaken]

I was thinking a full progression.

So you're advocating one or the other, and either way the druid gets full casting.  That could work.  It's certainly an easy ACF.  Does anyone else have any thoughts on the matter?

Pretty much, I think it was agreed earlier in the thread that the druid getting full casting AND Wildshaping AND full animal companion progression was too much.

[RobbyPants]

Yeah, it's pretty hard to keep controlled.

The nice thing about this being an ACF is that by taking the animal companion, the druid can split his actions between himself (primarily casting I'd assume) and his companion.  In exchange, the druid would lose some of his own versatility, because his companion cannot change form round by round.

I like it.  I think we should go this route.

[ZanKhellendros]

Stepping back from the druid to the cleric domain granted powers I would say that they look pretty sweet, a couple need some work, but you did say in your email that it was a beginning, seeming to me to fall a little short; like adding the smite back to destruction was a good suggestion. A couple others also sounded a bit weak but you know I have never really been great at balancing power, I always error on the side of caution and give to much instead of not enough. I did look back at the base spells then the spells gained from the domain itself but I still think a few granted powers need something more. I will make a list and let you. The animal domain is one of them off the top of my head.

Oh, one more thing ...

 

    

You better show up next game , LOLz

[RobbyPants]

I'm curious if anyone has any more ideas for the Domain powers?  Not even so much from a balance stand point, but just from an idea stand point.  I feel the following domains (at least) could use some work:

- Animal
- Knowledge
- Magic
- Protection
- Trickery

Also, I think the four alignments are missing a bit.  How do you feel about the "drowning" abilities of Air and Water?  Those ideas came to me and I decided to post them, although they seem out of the realm of what they did before.  Is that okay?  Maybe we want wierd and interesting clerics based on domain selection.

[veekie]

I like the drowning powers myself, though perhaps they could do with being a couple levels higher. It's essentially a Save or Die, with conditions.

Protection, I think the protective ward can be expanded to an area effect(ala Magic Circle), grant temporary hp and create a wall of force, except it should probably be breakable, at higher levels.

A question though, are your domain powers meant to be package deals or you can pick one with a Domain Improvement?

[RobbyPants]

I was just thinking packaged deals.  The idea is if they're all geared off actual cleric levels, it gives incentive to stay the class.  Now, the player makes a choise to multiclass out and take a PrC.

[veekie]

Ok, I was just entertaining the thought of having multiple available abilities for each domain for each tier, or at least leaving that option open to be filled later.

[ZanKhellendros]

I like the drowning ability and think its probly ok where it is, it may be a save or die but only against something with the subtype for it, how often do you run into stuff like that anyway.

[RobbyPants]

If you have Water, you'd be able to drown any air-breathing creature.

Even though this is a SoD, there are other qualifications:

- you need to roll higher than their HP
- they get a save
- it takes three rounds to kill them
- they can be revived with an untrained Heal check

Granted, this could set someone up for a Coup De Grace, but it would take a round.

[RobbyPants]

If the cleric has a much smaller spell list and the druid is given spells known, should they both become spontaneous casters?  Since the druid can only have shapeshifting or an animal companion, does he need to have a limited number of spells known?

If they are made spontaneous, should we just scrap the favored soul?

[Midnight_v]

Maybe... 
(depends what the favored soul would be doing otherwise.) Does it get the old massive spells selection?
Maybe they shouldn't be spontaneous. . .  I think its "droppable"
Or maybe make just give it a schickt aside from "weaker" cleric...
I'd take the knight class abilities and mesh it into the Favored soul.

[veekie]

Well, I've already mentioned my preference for spontaneous casting for the divine classes, provided their spells known get a clampdown. Makes sense both IC and mechanically, if you think about it. Having healing and other status counteracting spells available on demand would make having them more feasible to learn, even if they come into play rarely.

And with the domains tweak, I don't see why the Favored Soul can't be adequately represented by a cleric. Leave the prepared divine casting to the archivists, who DO use spellbooks anyway.

[Kuroimaken]

And with the domains tweak, I don't see why the Favored Soul can't be adequately represented by a cleric. Leave the prepared divine casting to the archivists, who DO use spellbooks anyway.

And who don't suffer from "my numbers are made of bullshit" syndrome.

Still, I kinda like the Favored Soul as he is. He could actually use a little oomph.

[ZanKhellendros]

I had a few suggestions for the domain granted powers for beefin them up.
-Magic - maybe gaining some wizard spells
-Knowledge - Additional Bonuses on checks per day kinda thing / special uses for the checks
-Animal - maybe an animal compnain something like the ranger gets / Maybe some druid spells

Just some ideas, don't want to blend the classes too much otherwise why play them but maybe we could build something from here.
Still working on other suggestions, also goinng over the rest of your stuff to see if I could help else where.
See you sunday ... or else ... 

[RobbyPants]

Okay, so it sounds like druids can keep the spells known table I posted on the first page and they'll cast spontaneously.

Clerics can also cast spontaneously, they will have full access to their spell list, but their spell list will be much smaller, and much more controlled by their domains.  I still have to finish on this project.

Sound good?

_____

Magic could be made interesting by more wizard spells on top of what they get from the domain list (which isn't complete yet ).  Maybe every five levels, they could get Advanced Learning and pick a spell from the Sorcerer/Wizard list.

With Knoweldge, right now the half-assed suggestion I threw in there was a whole bunch of Skill Focus (Knowledge) feats, which would grant a +4 bonus to four of them eventually.  I'd also toyed around with granting Knowledge Devotion (from Complete Champion) as a bonus feat.  I figure anyone with this domain is probably taking that feat anyway.

I like the idea of an Animal Companion for the Animal domain, but it couldn't be a full progression.  Otherwise, it would be too strong compared to the druid.  The problem is, if the progression is too weak, it becomes pointless.  I also toyed around with giving them the druids's shapeshifting, but only animal forms, and possibly a delayed progression.  I'm still really iffy on this domain.

edit
Awesome sig Zane.  I almost missed that.  I just saw someone with an OOTS shirt with V on it at Steak & Shake tonight.

[ZanKhellendros]

For magic domain I don't remember which book I saw this in but they offer alternative uses for skills, with the knowledge I thought maybe doing something like that. The trouble with knowledge checks is that the DC is set down by the DM, so an extra bonus just assures the player he would do better. But back to the point knowledge is kind of hard because its really all roleplaying stuff, no really concrete physical uses.
Oh, just thought of this, a detect lie or alignment ability or zone of truth maybe.

The animal domian the companion idea i did suggest the ranger type, that seems to be somewhat usefull but not a real powerful class feature for them

A couple more domain ideas here :
- Strength - small bonus to str / bonus to str skill checks that would be constant
- Sun - Cast light spells maximized or with inc CL / make more turning special abilities
- Trickery - bonuses on granted class skills checks / bonus to att rolls when target denied dex bonus
- Protection - bonus to AC / reduce AC (the protection) of opponents (perhaps this with destruction too)

Had some thoughts about the alignment type domains, you could do some increased CL bonuses at certain level increaments as well.
You could always throw some bonus feat in here and there where it would make sense.
Still brainstorming ...
Also started on the spell list, what sources are you working from and willing to use?

[RobbyPants]

Thanks for the ideas.  I like a lot of these.

- Strength - small bonus to str / bonus to str skill checks that would be constant

Constant Str bonus?  That could work.  Just grant a scaling enchancement bonus to Str.  Typically, I'd been doling out abilities at level 1, and every 5 levels as needed.  I'm not sure if this progression would be suitable or not.  Here's a tenative suggestion:

You get a +2 enhancment bonus to Str at level 5.  Every five levels thereafter, this bonus increases by +2 (so +8 at level 20).  Since it's enhancement, it would overlap with a lot of other sources.  In the long run, this type of cleric wouldn't end up much stronger than anyone else who watned to, but I guess it would save him money on Str-increasing items and time on Str-increasing buffs.

- Sun - Cast light spells maximized or with inc CL / make more turning special abilities

Maximized light spells could work if done sparingly (1/encounter, or X/day based on cleric level).  Extra turning effects?  Maybe creatures damaged by the turning would have to save or be blinded and/or some other effects.

- Trickery - bonuses on granted class skills checks / bonus to att rolls when target denied dex bonus

Now there's something I didn't even consider.  The attack bonus could work nicely.  Sneak Attack could work too, although I don't want to overdo something like that.  Nice!

- Protection - bonus to AC / reduce AC (the protection) of opponents (perhaps this with destruction too)

Are you thinking a static bonus to AC?  Perhaps I could use a sieries of auraus like I suggested for War, but all protection-related.  I'm not sure that I'd use it as a debuff (although maybe for Destruction, like you suggested).

Had some thoughts about the alignment type domains, you could do some increased CL bonuses at certain level increaments as well.

Increasing CL seems so generic, but I'm still at a loss on these.  Maybe a bonus to save DCs against creatures of opposing alignments?

Also started on the spell list, what sources are you working from and willing to use?

Well, for now, all that's posted came straight out of core.  I personally have the Spell Compendium, most of the Completes, and the PHB2.  I think I could build a decent list from those.

[veekie]

For Magic, Spell Resistance? And benefits like Spell Turning when a spell fails to penetrate resistance.
Animal, some limited animal shape shifting might be appropriate. Shapeshifting can afford to be weaker than the druid's and yet remain relevant, since it improves the cleric's overall fighting ability.

Knowledge, about the only one I can see is Dark Knowledge, stolen right off the Archivist.
Protection, a variety of shielding auras would be highly appropriate.

[ZanKhellendros]

Spell resistance for magic domain, I like that too.

Also the wildshape or animal companion for the animal domain, put it a few steps behind and you should be good, I looked back at your ranger and realized my mistake. I meant with the -3 lvl, still useful but not super awesome.

- Good / Evil / Law / Chaos - Give them a spell with per whatever uses, something appropriate for each type or something like Divine power for all
- Destruction - Maybe some damage to living creatures from turn attempts , not sure how much would be ok probably not a full blast like for undead
- Death - Same as what I suggested above for destruction but more potent / beyond the immune to death effects maybe some bonuses for when dropped to negative HPs, making them even further resistant to death
- Luck - Maybe some bonuses to saves / or later on they also can make an opponent reroll

The tricky thing about this is that I am not familiar with your pantheons dogmas, beyond the obvious the deity's personality may help shed some light adding more detail to what abilities would be appropriate.