D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]

[Midnight_v]

As far as BAB and HD, the cloistered variant existed and both types of clerics are used, so I say leave it at that.

I'm sorry I dont' follow? Are you saying lets have both the standard cleric and the variant one as well?

Well, the clanky cleric is still available with the martial domains, I figure War could restore the BAB and add some sacred bonuses to attack rolls

Why.
Why reduce the Bab at all? Because you don't like it? That's not good design theory.

I want one of you to put forth WHY something needs to be changed before we change it.
....
We need to have the "What are the flaws in the cleric?"
For example I say...
Right now The cleric tier 1, but a big part of that is Divine Metamagic. . . OR persistant spell... OR nightstcks
...and you respond
"Well Midnight_v I (agree/disagree) this is why I feel this is (needed/broken).
Midnight_v: Ahh okay well ... then when you put it like that, (I can't refute your logic/Call bullshit)

The other part of that is Wizard spells. . .
....
This is how this should work I would think...
1 .Define a problem
2. Explain why you think its a problem
3. Discuss to see if this is a common problem to all... (or a personal problem)
4. Start making suggestions for the problem.
..........
Which should work a lot better than saying "Lets try this!"... I just don't want it to be random or get to the point where we flat out disagree (like now for instance) and it turns sour.
Here are my problems with the cleric.
1. Divine Metamagic/Nightsticks/Persistant spell. (I know this is a common problem.) we can skip that step
but its all clumped to gether and we can pull one peg out it becomes much more balanced.
2. Casts spells on the wizard list by domain.
3. Turning undead/rebuking should be clarified so it's OBVIOUS how it works... though it does work now it could be explained better. K explained it pretty well in terms of rebuking so clearly its doable.
4. Fails as a "combat healer" I noticed this when the crusader came out. I have a fix for this though... once people have a chance to discuss.

[Soda]

As far as BAB and HD, the cloistered variant existed and both types of clerics are used, so I say leave it at that.

I'm sorry I dont' follow? Are you saying lets have both the standard cleric and the variant one as well?

Yeah, I'm in favor of the regular d8, Med BAB cleric with the cloistered cleric variant available. I'd like to see both options exist in core (SRD is almost core but not quite) but that would add unnecessary complexity. I think they should get 4+ skills, but a free rank in know religion or others from domains would be good too.

Midnight has said secondary melee a few times and I think that's key. The cleric, IMO, should be primary buffer/healer, SECONDARY melee. Right now, just like wizards, they are primary everything, secondary everything else.

[Midnight_v]

By secondary melee I mean med Bab.
Buffer ... mostly self buffing till high levels when they get "Buff mass"
and combat healer. Finding a way to combat heal is important.
I dont' want divine power to go away or anything... I just don't want them walking around like that all day long.  .  .
I want them to keep the cleric spell list and same number of spells but the domains giving them random spells from anyones list gets... janky.
...
You got it right over all though.

[DavidWL]

Midnight - to answer your question, "what's wrong now" (my opinion):

Flaws in the Cleric:
- Knows all spells on the spell list (a beginning Cleric is _very_ flexible)
- Divine Metamagic for spells with effective level over current max castable level (He's also more powerful)
- Is as good a fighter as the fighter
- Can too easily step (hard) on the wizards toes as well: anyspell, greater anyspell, miracle, spontaneous domains, divine magician.  

These aren't necessarily bad, what is bad is how well he does it, and at how little cost.  In other words, not only can he do everything, he can do it better than you can.  (Over simplifying somewhat).

I think a lot of the fix can come from:
- fixed list of spells known (what is already in place is fine)
- fix DMM
- fix some spells (anyspell, divine power, miracle, etc.)
- slightly tweak some existing class options / alternate abilities.

Also, the fact that there are no class features to speak of after 1st level is a little pathetic.  So we need to power it down, and then power it up so there is some reason to stay in the class.

Finally, after all of that, I suspect that the Cleric will still be a bit strong for his level (given 2 "feats" from domains, full divine spellcasting, armored casting and medium combat focus.  Also, we'll have probably added some cool abilities as he levels up.).  Especially in that it is front-loaded.  However, we will have fixed the obviously overpowered things, and will now have to deal with the subtle issue of balance.  This, I think, is where the real debates are.

So, If we compare an optimized 1st level cleric with a 1st level fighter, who would win in combat?   I bet the cleric would.  With the new improved fighter, this would change sometime between levels 5 and 7, but shouldn't be true even in the first few levels.

Best,
David

[Kuroimaken]

- Divine Metamagic for spells with effective level over current max castable level (He's also more powerful)

This is, SERIOUSLY, not a problem at all. Here are my reasons:

1) Requires two feats for every metamagic you want to DMM with (the metamagic itself, and DMM for it);
2) The really abusive metas eat up slots (and thus turn attempts) like a Tarrasque (Persisted Divine Power is scary, sure, but it eats up seven turn attempts - one for activation and six for persisting. Undoable without wasting a feat slot on it, Nightsticks or a REALLY high Charisma, assuming point-buy);
3) A good deal of metamagic feats assume usage with damage-dealing spells, which the Cleric won't really be getting until 5th level - but the real kicker when using metamagic to great effect is to apply metamagics to spells that are pretty good to begin with, such as enervation, which deals negative levels rather than damage.
4) Without DMM, some metamagic options just don't measure up to the real thing. Which would you rather have - maximized Cure Serious Wounds or Heal? (Just using an example.)

[DavidWL]

1) Requires two feats for every metamagic you want to DMM with (the metamagic itself, and DMM for it);

Rather, it requires exactly 3 feats - extend, persistent and DMM (persistent).  [Or quicken, if you prefer - also pretty effective, although not quite as effective]

And, with this one-time investment, you can pretty easily DMM 2 spells.(4 with extend/persistant)

2) The really abusive metas eat up slots (and thus turn attempts) like a Tarrasque (Persisted Divine Power is scary, sure, but it eats up seven turn attempts - one for activation and six for persisting. Undoable without wasting a feat slot on it, Nightsticks or a REALLY high Charisma, assuming point-buy);

So what?  Mid-level, nightsticks are cheap, and then there is always the undeath domain.

3) A good deal of metamagic feats assume usage with damage-dealing spells, which the Cleric won't really be getting until 5th level - but the real kicker when using metamagic to great effect is to apply metamagics to spells that are pretty good to begin with, such as enervation, which deals negative levels rather than damage.

I disagree - the most blantant examples are not offensive spells, but rather buff spells DMM persistent.

4) Without DMM, some metamagic options just don't measure up to the real thing. Which would you rather have - maximized Cure Serious Wounds or Heal? (Just using an example.)

This is true, but you don't use metamagic on all spells ... you use it on the ones it augments.

Example Build:
Cleric 5 [planning, time] - feats: persistant, DMM(persistant), 1 free feat
- we have persistent extended haste and persistent extended mass lesser vigor.
- the entire party runs circles around enemies using hit-and-run tactics.

Example Build: -
Cleric 5 [planning, spell] - feats: persistant, DMM(persistant), 1 free feat
-  persistent extended wraithstrike and persistent extended alter self.

This isn't overpowered?  Even if you don't allow extend and persist to stack (which I think is raw), even with 1 spell, it is _very_powerful.  And it just get's more powerful later on. 

All of that said, I 1/2 agree with you.  If we toned down the Persistant spell (so that it increased duration by a couple of steps, but didn't allow something like wraithstrike), and we made it so that it didn't stack with Extend, this would help.  If we fixed some spells (alter self for example) that would help.

But even after all of that, being able to cast a maximized extended timestop or twinned maximized damage spells is still too powerful, in the sense that the cleric will be able to (a couple of times a day) insta-kill enemies which were supposed to be a serious challenge.

David

[veekie]

@M_V
The biggest percieved flaw on my end, other than DMM cheese, is how bland the class is, the main difference between any two clerics, regardless of deity, is a few spells per level(a lot of the domain spells appear on the cleric list anyway as well), and 2 feat equivalents, plus none of these are lost by PrCing out ASAP. On top of this, having every spell on the cleric list on demand helps screw it up big time.

Now, while the latter can be easily rectified enough(by changing to a spells known structure, whether spontaneous or prepared), the obvious solution to the blandness, is to make domains more interesting, which, considering the number of domains a cleric has, would lead to power taking an upward creep, so the BAB, HD, and Fort save are the 'price' for interesting domain powers, rather than negative things in their own right.

Essentially, I see the cleric's domains as being more central to a cleric than the 3/4 BAB, and if some other means of balancing out amped domain powers(I'm thinking a 1,5,10,15,20 progression of domain powers here, possibly staggered, so you improve something every level instead of getting a big lump sum of 3 improvements at the multiples of 5, as well as having only a single domain's 20th power.) is available, I'd be glad to hear it.

Of course, having started in 3.5, I'm not all that attached to prior editions(or know what they're like for the matter).

[Soda]

I see veekie's point of view. I like the idea of the cleric being much more domain-centric. It'd spice up the class a lot. I think it would help to individualize them more if they had spontaneous access to domain spells. They have the spells, they'll cast them if the time arises.

Expanded domains would have to draw largely on the wizard and druid lists, which would be a power concern. I'm not against the blending of spell lists, but it definitely can't be done all willy nilly. I think

[Mister_Sinister]

I have made this statement before, more or less in precisely the same way.

[Midnight_v]

Yes he did and it was a bad idea then too...
What you're suggesting is essentially turning the class into the Shugenja.
Which is generally speaking a poor and not by comparision to other classes but in general... vs monsters.

No. Lets not recreate the mistake of the past. The mistake that made the cleric too strong and the fighter too weak we making foolish decisions based on the immediate problem.
The fixes you propose are simple and reactive... in fact over reactive. Essentially its pejurative to play a cleric in that way.
Frankly with these ideas you don't even need to redo the cleric at all just use the paizo cleric... which is essentially a only slightly shittier idea, but essentially the same.
Saying I don't want the cleric to be as good as X class is a long standing pejorative effort.
Read whats being said. I dont' want the cleric to be as good as the fighter, at fighting, I don't want the cleric to be as good a caster as the wizard.
 Well no shit. . .

Think though...
the reason the Cleric was better than the fighter at fighting is because EVERYBODY was better than the fighter at fighting! Terrible rubric to operate under.
The reason why the cleric is better than casting than the wizard is simply because they could end up casting the same spells. In which case the cleric does it better most times.

The fix is not to start playing shugenja. Or cloisterd.
The correct fix is to reduce the spells from the wizard list available.
Maybe getting rid of the domain spells is useful and thats not a bad Idea.
Just make sure the number of spells they cast isn't reduced.
Frankly there are already nerf clerics running about...
Favored soul, Shugenja..
Niether of those is particularly going the right direction.
..........
I warn that many fixes people want to shackle the cleric with will make him LESS than tier 3.
He'll be "LESS" picked than the crusader. LESS useful than the Bard.
Why? The cleric (and druid too) have had a reign of power so people are going to subconciously attempt to punish them for it. If you take the cleric and make it "low tier 3" like the psychic warrior... its a shitty fix.
They need to still kick ass, just not as much.

So... We shouldn't make an entierly new thing or overpenalize the cleric for "making fighters cry" all those years. Thats a shit rubric for game design and I don't even think most people know they're doing it but they are.

I don't mind a generic change to the Domains... especially the part about taking away the domain spells and making 5-10-15-20 class abilities...
But a lot of the stuff suggested ... (especially by Sinister) push the cleric to the very bottom of tier 3. Depending on how much you value being a full caster.
Still if you go that route we should review the paizo cleric I believe.
And the shugenja...
And the favored soul (with the variants)

[Midnight_v]

PAIZO'S ClericHit Die: d8.
Class SkillsSkill Ranks Per Level: 2 + Int modifier.
Class Features
Base
Attack Fort Ref Will Spells per Day
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th

The following are class features of the cleric.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Clerics are proficient
with all simple weapons, with all types of armor, and with
shields (except tower shields). Clerics are also proficient
with the favored weapon of their deities.
Aura (Ex): Casting:Channel Energy [Spoiler](Su): Any cleric, regardless of alignment,
has the power to affect undead creatures by channeling the
power of her faith through her holy (or unholy) symbol (see
Channel Energy in the Combat Chapter). This power also
heals or harms living creatures in the radius.
A good cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships a good
deity) channels positive energy, damaging undead creatures
and causing them to f lee. An evil cleric (or a neutral cleric
who worships an evil deity) channels negative energy,
healing undead and bending them to her will. A neutral
cleric of a neutral deity must choose whether she channels
positive or negative energy. Once this choice is made, it
cannot be reversed. This decision also determines whether
the cleric can cast spontaneous cure or inf lict spells (see
spontaneous casting).
A cleric may channel energy a number of times per day
equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier. [/spoiler]

Domain Powers
[spoiler] (Su): Each cleric must choose a deity.
Each deity has a number of domains associated with its
faith, and its clerics must choose two of these domains
to focus on. Each domain grants a number of domain
powers dependent upon the level of the cleric, as well
as a number of bonus spells. A cleric gains both of the
listed powers and bonus spells granted by her domains
at each of the listed levels. See the Spells Chapter for
more information.
If your cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, you still
select two domains to represent her spiritual inclinations. [/spoiler]
Orisons (Sp):Spontaneous Casting: The individual domain powers Examples of a few Paizo Domains
Air Domain
[spoiler]
Deities: Gozreh, Shelyn.
Caster
Level Ability
1st Lightning Arc (Su): As a standard action you can
unleash an arc of electricity targeting any foe within
30 feet as a ranged touch attack. The lightning arc
deals 1d6 points of electricity damage +1 for every
two caster levels you possess.
2nd Obscuring Mist (Sp): You can cast obscuring mist 1/day
per 2 caster levels you possess.
4th Gust of Wind (Sp): You can cast gust of wind 1/day.
8th Walk on Air (Su): You can walk on air as if it were solid
for a number of rounds per day equal to your caster
level. These rounds do not need to be consecutive.
This ability otherwise functions as air walk.
12th Chain Lightning (Sp): You can cast chain lightning 1/
day.
16th Control Weather (Sp): You can cast control weather 1/
day.
20th Elemental Swarm (Sp): You can cast elemental swarm 1/
day, summoning only air creatures. [/spoiler]

Animal DomainDarkness Domain

[Midnight_v]

Now I'm not saying that any of thats good mind you I'm saying we should at least look to see what others have done.
I think keep the cleric as it is
Med BAB
Full Casting (No Spell Failure penalty)
D8 Hp
...Is a must...

I agree that domains should scale like what they've done here. (I don't think it should be a buch of spell like abilities "per se" but that might work too)
I think Channel energy is a lazy and sad way to say "we don't understand turn undead" which tells me turn undead (like grapple) really needs rewording so everyone can understand what its doing.... channel energy sucks yeah, but it does make me think of a fix for combat healer.
Allowing the "spontaneous changing of "cure" spells to be cast as Immidiate actions. Same with inflict but if we make inflict deal damage and the target gains half that damage at temp hp... might really fit with the evil theme  ...needs work but it's 253 and I'm not one for wording right now....
...
What else...
The Idea to essentially "make the cleric suck"; "THEN! We make it good again" is .... ridiculous.
It's already good.
We have benchmarks to go by? Why not use them?

Bring the cleric in line with the crusader.

Instead of manuever progression he gets full cleric casting. Minus the domain spells
(Spell list choices remain "any cleric spell" that isn't alignment opposed)
Instead of Domain spells he gets scaling domain powers.... at 1 4 8 12 16 20 which could be Spell likes or once a days, or feat like things, or Smite (destruction) or whatever... its not really that hard)
Clarify Turn undead for the people who lack reading comprehension.
Let the cleric "heal" in combat. 
and 4 x skills. Thats balanced.
....

We should take a look at the shugenja and favored soul too... if we really want to see where we might go wrong...
Shugeja. tsk tsk tsk.

[veekie]

Ok, I'm willing to go with dropping domain spells as the cost for better domains(though that, in turn has some repercussions with PrCs), but not for getting /day SLAs(which are the exact same thing as spells in disguise), in place of either BAB, armor proficiency, or a HD downsizing. Grab some actually special powers instead, either permanent effects or per encounter in most cases. I'll whip up an improved domain if I have time later. However, considering the low power of the vast majority of domain spells(the exceptions are what make them nuts, but the rest tend to be mediocre or the cleric has the already), dropping them alone would help, but I think at least one of your listed 'protected traits' would have to go.

RE spellcasting, the current thing on the compendium seems alright, number of spells per day is not the problem, number of spells known is.

That said, the shugenja blows because it's exactly like the cloistered cleric, only without any spells worth a damn, that makes all the difference. Favored Souls are hit by nasty MAD(2 casting stats, no domains), and with no class features worth having, their 'tank' aspect doesn't really give it anything, average BAB, decent HD, all good saves do nothing to make it a class worth taking. Their spellcasting without the wis/cha dependency is pretty decent though.

Overall, I'm not aiming at a penalty for power, that is largely the spells' fault, but a direct consequence of better domains is more power, which have to be paid for in some way. The changes wouldn't be anywhere like bottom of Tier 3 in that light. Hopefully I have enough free time on hand today to get a sample out.

[Midnight_v]

Ok, I'm willing to go with dropping domain spells as the cost for better domains(though that, in turn has some repercussions with PrCs), but not for getting /day SLAs(which are the exact same thing as spells in disguise), in place of either BAB, armor proficiency, or a HD downsizing. Grab some actually special powers instead, either permanent effects or per encounter in most cases. I'll whip up an improved domain if I have time later. However, considering the low power of the vast majority of domain spells(the exceptions are what make them nuts, but the rest tend to be mediocre or the cleric has the already), dropping them alone would help, but I think at least one of your listed 'protected traits' would have to go.

RE spellcasting, the current thing on the compendium seems alright, number of spells per day is not the problem, number of spells known is.

That said, the shugenja blows because it's exactly like the cloistered cleric, only without any spells worth a damn, that makes all the difference. Favored Souls are hit by nasty MAD(2 casting stats, no domains), and with no class features worth having, their 'tank' aspect doesn't really give it anything, average BAB, decent HD, all good saves do nothing to make it a class worth taking. Their spellcasting without the wis/cha dependency is pretty decent though.

Overall, I'm not aiming at a penalty for power, that is largely the spells' fault, but a direct consequence of better domains is more power, which have to be paid for in some way. The changes wouldn't be anywhere like bottom of Tier 3 in that light. Hopefully I have enough free time on hand today to get a sample out.

Hey veekie, I just want to say, I appreciate you hearing me out.
I'm not 100% sure if I'm right about the changes, but I am sure a good analysis of all related things will help us in the decision making.
God bless & Good night.
M_v

Overall, I'm not aiming at a penalty for power, that is largely the spells' fault, but a direct consequence of better domains is more power, which have to be paid for in some way. The changes wouldn't be anywhere like bottom of Tier 3 in that light. Hopefully I have enough free time on hand today to get a sample out.

Damn. I want to respond to this ... I'm just all out of juice for now...zzzzz

[Mac]

Hmm, Cleric should have been modular anyways.  I mean, it's supposed to be the 'soft' divine worshiper and they're tooling around in the same armor and weapons as a paladin.  Paladin is the 'hard' extreme, they wear the armor, they smite the foes, and they wade head on into the enemy.  Yet, the cleric fills two distinct slots.  They are both the 'soft' extreme and the mid ground, and that doesn't make much sense.  This is two different classes in one, the priestly type background spell-slinger, and the combat support.  Now, naturally there's going to be some overlap, but it should be more of the variety of fighters and rangers both being equally able to be archers, rather than rogues acting as the primary spellcasters in a party.  Yes, I've seen that happen, it was awesome.
My vote is to keep all the options, but do it like how Rangers do TWF and Archery, pick one or the other, and maybe allow the ability to pick up the other abilities later or through different avenues.  After all, even if you drop BAB and HD, you can easily make up for it with a class ability.

I'm not even going to pretend to have read through the thread, or even have more than a basic grasp of what you guys are talking about, since the highest level cleric I've ever played was...level 6, and that was with a most decidedly non-op group.
Just my copper penny.

[Kuroimaken]

This is true, but you don't use metamagic on all spells ... you use it on the ones it augments.

Example Build:
Cleric 5 [planning, time] - feats: persistant, DMM(persistant), 1 free feat
- we have persistent extended haste and persistent extended mass lesser vigor.
- the entire party runs circles around enemies using hit-and-run tactics.

Example Build: -
Cleric 5 [planning, spell] - feats: persistant, DMM(persistant), 1 free feat
-  persistent extended wraithstrike and persistent extended alter self.

This isn't overpowered?  Even if you don't allow extend and persist to stack (which I think is raw), even with 1 spell, it is _very_powerful.  And it just get's more powerful later on. 

All of that said, I 1/2 agree with you.  If we toned down the Persistant spell (so that it increased duration by a couple of steps, but didn't allow something like wraithstrike), and we made it so that it didn't stack with Extend, this would help.  If we fixed some spells (alter self for example) that would help.

But even after all of that, being able to cast a maximized extended timestop or twinned maximized damage spells is still too powerful, in the sense that the cleric will be able to (a couple of times a day) insta-kill enemies which were supposed to be a serious challenge.

Note how in both cases you used the planning domain, and in either case you picked a powerful domain as the second one. I find no fault with DMM, but rather with domains on this one. What if there was a domain that gave out persist spell? Nearly every cleric would get it, but that's not the fault of DMM, it's the fault of the domain power being too good to pass up.

Your first example is weak, by the way. 3.5 Haste sucks in comparison to 3.0, and it does nothing in terms of hit-and-run tactics for the melee guys in the party. And since the ranged guys still have to deal with ammunition, it does very little for them, too. Mass lesser vigor will only do something for them if they're injured, in which case they'll need to hide for it to be really effective (and if they're getting injured, they're doing something wrong). The second example is, by far, more worrisome since it enhances both your attack AND defensive capabilities - but it's nothing that tossing a few howlers on the party won't fix.

On nightsticks: some DMs do not allow Nightstick stacking, and that can prove to be a problem.

I disagree - the most blantant examples are not offensive spells, but rather buff spells DMM persistent.

Very true. I was merely pointing out that the more ingenious uses of metamagic have nothing to do with damage.

And even when you get to damage spells with tons of metas applied (which means tons of feats spent too, by the way): if your DM's monsters can't handle one twinned maximized spell, your DM's SERIOUSLY doing something wrong.

[RobbyPants]

Sorry, I've been busy with a lot of family get togethers (and more to come).  I wanted to throw out a few example ideas I had bouncing around in my head for scaling domain powers (these are all rough drafts).  I think we could easily start with Core and try to get those hashed out. Also, I think we should leave the core chasis alone at this point.  That being said, here are a few ideas:

Note: these are in addition to what the cleric already gets

___________________________________________
Air

• Gain one point of electric resistance per cleric level.  Should this stack with the Enerty Resistance spell and similar spells or not?
• Gain Scorn Earth (see Elocator) at 5th level.
• Gain a fly speed (good maneuverability) equal to base land speed 10.
• Gain a fly speed (perfect maneuverability) equal to base land speed + 30 feet (max double base land speed) at level 15.
• 

___________________________________________
Earth

• Gain one point of acid resistance per cleric level.  Should this stack with the Enerty Resistance spell and similar spells or not?
• Stability at level 1.
• +1 natural armor bonus at level 5.  +1 every five levels thereafter.

___________________________________________
Fire

• Gain one point of fire resistance per cleric level.  Should this stack with the Enerty Resistance spell and similar spells or not?
• Spend a spell slot to ignite a target within 10 feet per spell level.  The target takes 2d6 fire damage per level of the spell slot (Reflex save for half).  If the target fails the save, he starts on fire, and take 1d6 fire damage per level of the spell for a number of rounds equal to the spell's level.  The flames can be extinguished as a full round action that provokes an attack of opportunity.

___________________________________________
Healing

• You roll d10 instead of d8 for any Cure spell you cast (not counting spells from items) at level 1.
• You roll d12 instead of d10 for any Cure spells you cast at level 5.
• When casting a Cure spell, you can heal one point of ability damage per 5 HP healed (this does not reduce the amount of HP healed) at level 10.  You can do this for each target if using Mass Cure spells.
• At level 10, when casting Heal, you heal 15 HP per caster level instead of 10 HP.
• When casting a Cure spell, you can one condition normally removed by Heal per 10 HP healed (this does not reduce the amount of HP healed) at level 15.  You can do this for each target if using Mass Cure spells.
• At level 20, you can apply the Maximize spell feat for free on any Cure spell you cast.

___________________________________________
War

• Weapon Specialization (deitie's favored weapon) at level 6.
• Greater Weapon Focus (deitie's favored weapon) at level 12.
• Greater Weapon Specialization (deitie's favored weapon) at level 18.

___________________________________________
Water

• Gain one point of cold resistance per cleric level.  Should this stack with the Enerty Resistance spell and similar spells or not?
• Gain a swim speed equal to base land speed (can take 10 on Swim checks) at level 1.
• Water Breathing at level 3.
• ???

[RobbyPants]

Also, taking the above suggestions into consideration, we might have to do something else to weaken the class.  Obviously, we don't need to buff clerics.

I still like the idea of making a very small generic cleric list, and to make each domain bigger.  I also think this is a lot of work, and I don't think I'll be able to post anything on it for a good week (unless maybe I work up one or two "sample" domains).  I think this is a good way to limit the cleric's supreme versatility in terms of a huge spell list, and it also adds flavor to the class.

[RobbyPants]

Chaos

• Treat weapon as chaotic aligned for purposes of overcoming DR.
• +2 to caster level checks for overcoming spell resistance of lawful outsiders.
• +4 to caster level checks for overcoming spell resistance of lawful outsiders.
• ???

_____________________________
Evil

• Treat weapon as evil aligned for purposes of overcoming DR.
• +2 to caster level checks for overcoming spell resistance of good outsiders.
• +4 to caster level checks for overcoming spell resistance of good outsiders.
• 

_____________________________
Good

• Treat weapon as good aligned for purposes of overcoming DR.
• +2 to caster level checks for overcoming spell resistance of evil outsiders.
• +4 to caster level checks for overcoming spell resistance of evil outsiders.
• ???

_____________________________
Law

• Treat weapon as lawful aligned for purposes of overcoming DR.
• +2 to caster level checks for overcoming spell resistance of chaotic outsiders.
• +4 to caster level checks for overcoming spell resistance of chaotic outsiders.
• 

[Kuroimaken]

Good ideas for domains. Healing Domain seems to be stepping a little on the Radiant Servant of Pelor's toes, though.