D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]

[bkdubs123]

Are you saying this compared to all other classes or to specialists?  At this point, the progression is designed to put the wizard closer to par with the specialists.

I'm saying it compared to all other classes. Your generalist Wizard is just less powerful than ever at low level, but is also still just as overpowering at 10th, 15th, 20th level than it ever was.

One thing I don't like is how a generalist wizard is stronger than a specialist.  In about every other aspect of D&D, you're rewarded for specialization.  This is different for the wizard becuase picking up all 8 schools doesn't spread himself thin; it just increases his versatility.  It's be likd playing a fighter 10/rogue 10/cleric 10/wizard 10 all at 10th level, and totally reworking what class features you have available each day.

I can understand your frustration over how a generalist Wizard is more powerful than a specialist. It's true they are. So, as you said, you want to make specialist classes - which I think is the better option. Specialist classes like the Warmage and the Beguiler are not only considerably less powerful than a straight Wizard, but they are considerably more balanced as well. One option you could consider is that instead of messing with the table and accepting that that works (because it doesn't), is that you could write up a specific "Generalist" class. After you're done, call it Wizard. So then you'd have 10 "Wizard" classes. You have one for each school, and you have a "Universalist." You design a unique spell list for the universalist, just like you would with an Oracle, or a Summoner, and you give it it's own unique class features, and I think you'll have something A LOT closer to balanced.

Sufficient planning on the Wizard's part and a little research go a long way. Grease is the most obvious contender here, but Wizards win at nearly all levels unless they're done VERY stupidly.

Yeah, every spell that's actually good at low level SOUNDS completely lame. The first time I ever played a Wizard did I grab anything like Sleep or Grease or Glitterdust or Alter Self, etc, etc? NO. Those spells don't sound fun. They sounds retarded and useless. But they aren't. This is a big problem. And no, sufficient planning doesn't change the fact that maybe you can contribute to two encounters per day at 1st level. Three at second! Yippie! All the planning does here it make it actually possible over impossible.

[Kuroimaken]

Yeah, every spell that's actually good at low level SOUNDS completely lame. The first time I ever played a Wizard did I grab anything like Sleep or Grease or Glitterdust or Alter Self, etc, etc? NO. Those spells don't sound fun. They sounds retarded and useless. But they aren't. This is a big problem. And no, sufficient planning doesn't change the fact that maybe you can contribute to two encounters per day at 1st level. Three at second! Yippie! All the planning does here it make it actually possible over impossible.

Nobody ever contributes much to an encounter at low levels. Try being a low-level Rogue sometime if you think being a Wizard is tough.

[bkdubs123]

That's... kind of true, but 1) Rogues should have always gotten d8 HD, and 2)Sneak Attack is good at low level. You can drop something in one attack roll, no save, and it's not like you're gonna miss.

And a Greatsword wielding Barbarian? Or a Punishing Stance Warblade? These guys contribute just fine, there's no reason spellcasters need to be chucking rocks in the corner with 3 hitpoints.

[veekie]

That's... kind of true, but 1) Rogues should have always gotten d8 HD, and 2)Sneak Attack is good at low level. You can drop something in one attack roll, no save, and it's not like you're gonna miss.

And a Greatsword wielding Barbarian? Or a Punishing Stance Warblade? These guys contribute just fine, there's no reason spellcasters need to be chucking rocks in the corner with 3 hitpoints.

Thats what unlimited, damage cranked, cantrips deals with, in part, they have highly accurate(touch may not be so awesome at low levels, but there will be some things they hit a lot more often than the greatsword guys), decently damaging spells all the time, as well as a bunch of utilities.

So the low level wizard changes the face of the fight 2-3 time per day and spends the rest helping to whittle down enemies with minor cantrips. Seems fair enough to me, though the details could use some work.

[Kuroimaken]

That's... kind of true, but 1) Rogues should have always gotten d8 HD, and 2)Sneak Attack is good at low level. You can drop something in one attack roll, no save, and it's not like you're gonna miss.

And a Greatsword wielding Barbarian? Or a Punishing Stance Warblade? These guys contribute just fine, there's no reason spellcasters need to be chucking rocks in the corner with 3 hitpoints.

You forget that at first level it's do or die. The Barbarian and the Warblade in question both have a reasonable BAB and don't suffer from HP-based penile deficiency, but they're both worth SQUAT at range. Anyone with less than d10/d12 HD and/or a reasonably high Con can be killed in a single hit - and those who do have it still don't have the best survivability.

Things improve ever-so-slightly up until third level, where you start seeing some actual contribution going on. You complaining about low-level party contribution from Wizards? What about Bards? Monks, who can't hit worth crap at low levels and use their class abilities at the same time? Spellthieves? For fuck's sakes, RIDING DOGS are considered to contribute more to the party at low levels.

SA is no guaranteed kill at low levels, either, because you have less opportunities to set it up.

[bkdubs123]

Hence why the Monk is being fixed by Robby. We're talking about fixing Wizards here so I think I'm pretty justified saying that Wizards blow at low level and therefore should blow less than they do. I don't really know that the 1d6 cantrip thing is going to cut it. I don't know what Robby is doing with Bards and I'm pretty sure he's just ignoring the Spellthief like every other sane person.

Saying to me, well other classes blow too, does nothing to refute my arguement. If Warriors contribute well in the low levels then casters need to contribute just as well.

[Kuroimaken]

Saying to me, well other classes blow too, does nothing to refute my arguement. If Warriors contribute well in the low levels then casters need to contribute just as well.

You missed the point. I didn't say other class blow. I said pretty much everyone blows at low levels. The only way to change that is to make low levels suck less, such as perhaps giving more HP for everyone at first level (a common fix that often keeps the DM from accidentally killing his players). Everyone has their "niche" at low levels (before casters blows EVERYONE out of the water), and the Wizard's is just fine as it is, thank you very much.

The unlimited, damage-boosted cantrip will do just fine. It's essentially the same as giving Wizards a shortbow with infinite arrows, except it hits more often, doesn't scale in usefulness as levels go up (I find that to be a shame, by the way), and will eventually be discarded when better options present themselves.

EDIT: Reserve feats ALSO go a long way towards making sure those precious few spell slots don't get wasted early.

[RobbyPants]

One option you could consider is that instead of messing with the table and accepting that that works (because it doesn't), is that you could write up a specific "Generalist" class. After you're done, call it Wizard. So then you'd have 10 "Wizard" classes. You have one for each school, and you have a "Universalist." You design a unique spell list for the universalist, just like you would with an Oracle, or a Summoner, and you give it it's own unique class features, and I think you'll have something A LOT closer to balanced.

How would you suggest making a generalist class?  What would we do to keep it from being tier 1 or 2?  Do we simply prune the spell list to take out all the good spells?  Do we modify the spell list to make the good spells a level higher?  I've had a very hard time trying to do things like these that actually matter.

I'd really like some opinions on the matter.  This has probably been the hardest part of the project for me.

The unlimited, damage-boosted cantrip will do just fine. It's essentially the same as giving Wizards a shortbow with infinite arrows, except it hits more often, doesn't scale in usefulness as levels go up (I find that to be a shame, by the way), and will eventually be discarded when better options present themselves.

How would you like to see them scale?  What I wanted to avoid is having them overshadow existing low-level spells that aren't cantrips.  Now, the way I currently have direct damage spells set up is that a 1st level spell will get +1 point of damage per damage die.  So, several 1st level spells maxed would look like:

Magic Missile: 5d4+10
Burning Hands: 5d4+5
Shocking Grasp: 5d6+5
Lesser X Orb: 5d8+5

Should we up the cap to 10 dice at the same rate of advancement?  If we did that, then I could see scaling 0-level spells in a way that would be semi-useful.  Still, the problem is that by the time you get to high levels, having infinite single-target blast spells isn't that useful.  Even still, you have so many spells per day that you don't really need to worry about running out.  That's the reason I didn't bother having them scale.  It doesn't seem like it'd matter at higher levels.

[Kuroimaken]

How would you like to see them scale?  What I wanted to avoid is having them overshadow existing low-level spells that aren't cantrips.  Now, the way I currently have direct damage spells set up is that a 1st level spell will get +1 point of damage per damage die.  So, several 1st level spells maxed would look like:

Magic Missile: 5d4+10
Burning Hands: 5d4+5
Shocking Grasp: 5d6+5
Lesser X Orb: 5d8+5

Should we up the cap to 10 dice at the same rate of advancement?  If we did that, then I could see scaling 0-level spells in a way that would be semi-useful.  Still, the problem is that by the time you get to high levels, having infinite single-target blast spells isn't that useful.  Even still, you have so many spells per day that you don't really need to worry about running out.  That's the reason I didn't bother having them scale.  It doesn't seem like it'd matter at higher levels.

Actually, I was thinking of something a little bit more like Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved. At the higher levels, you have effectively unlimited low-level spells (level 1 and 2, specifically). Of course, each class' projection goes up to 25th level in that book.

As you mentioned, at the higher levels, infinite single-target blast isn't that useful or worthwhile (and warlock fans might claim it steps on their toes, though I don't think that is true). So maybe you can pick another spell (or two, or three) off the low-level list to cast without limit (no higher than level 3, which is when the REAL fun begins).

[bkdubs123]

One option you could consider is that instead of messing with the table and accepting that that works (because it doesn't), is that you could write up a specific "Generalist" class. After you're done, call it Wizard. So then you'd have 10 "Wizard" classes. You have one for each school, and you have a "Universalist." You design a unique spell list for the universalist, just like you would with an Oracle, or a Summoner, and you give it it's own unique class features, and I think you'll have something A LOT closer to balanced.

How would you suggest making a generalist class?  What would we do to keep it from being tier 1 or 2?  Do we simply prune the spell list to take out all the good spells?  Do we modify the spell list to make the good spells a level higher?  I've had a very hard time trying to do things like these that actually matter.

I'd really like some opinions on the matter.  This has probably been the hardest part of the project for me.

I can look into it later today if you'd like. I actually think it's a cool idea not just a good idea, so I might be able to whip up something on the same power level as Beguilers and Dread Necros. See, that's the problem, you're not going to keep spellcasters like that out of Tier 2. Beguilers and DNs are Tier 2. Without a full rewrite of spellcasting they're always going to be strong classes.

[RobbyPants]

Fixing spell abuses will hopefully pull down most casters half a tier to a tier.  I just want something to stop the unsurpassed versatility of the wizard.  Obviously, if I try to use spell nerfs to bring the tier 1 wizard down to tier 3, that will have a bad effect on the already balanced tier 3 casters.  So, this indicates that something needs to be done to the class itself.  I'm just having a hard time figuring out what, exactly.

[bkdubs123]

Hopefully, nerfing some of the problem child spells will be enough. Anyway, I'll see if I can put my money where my mouth is and come up with a Generalist Wizard class later today.

And here's what I've got so far:

The Generalist Wizard

HD: d6

Saves: Good Will, Poor others

LV  Base Attack     Class Features
1.   +0             Scribe Scroll, Spellgrace +1
2.   +1             Sense Magic
3.   +1             Advanced Learning
4.   +2             Spellgrace +2
5.   +2             Bonus Feat
6.   +3             Advanced Learning
7.   +3             
8.   +4             Spellgrace +3
9.   +4             Advanced Learning
10.  +5             Bonus Feat
11.  +5             
12.  +6/+1          Advanced Learning, Spellgrace +4
13.  +6/+1         
14.  +7/+2         
15.  +7/+2          Advanced Learning, Bonus Feat
16.  +8/+3          Spellgrace +5
17.  +8/+3         
18.  +9/+4          Advanced Learning
19.  +9/+4          Bonus Feat
20.  +10/+5         Spellgrace +6, Something Awesome

Class Skills (4+Int per level): Appraise, Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Disguise, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge (any), Profession, Sense Motive, Spellcraft

Proficiencies: As Normal.

Spellcasting: A Wizard gets spells per day, and has higher level spells available to him at the same rate as a normal Wizard, however his spell list is much more restricted, and his spells are drawn from the new Generalist spell list. In order to cast a spell he must have an Intelligence score at least 10+spell level, and his bonus spell slots are determined by his Intelligence. The saving throw DCs of spells he casts are determined by Charisma. Wizards know all cantrips from all spell lists and can cast them at will.

A Wizard begins play knowing 3 1st level spells, and learns an additional spell of any spell level available for him to cast at every class level. Wizards may record additional spells into spellbooks. If a Wizard chooses he may learn an additional spell at each level but these spells must be transcribed into a spellbook. If he does not have access to the spellbook he may not prepare spells learned in this way.

Bonus Feats: At first level a Wizard gains Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat. He also gains bonus feats at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 19th levels. These feats can be any metamagic, heritage (counts as a Sorcerer to qualify), item creation, or reserve feats that the Wizard qualifies for.

Spellgrace: A Wizard adds his Wisdom modifier to AC against spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. He also adds the bonus indicated by the table to his saving throws against those abilities.

Sense Magic: As Swordsage.

Advanced Learning: At the indicated levels a Wizard can add any spell from any spell list to his list of spells known so long as his Wisdom score is at least 10+spell level. A spell added this way must be at least one level lower than the highest level spell a Wizard could normally learn.

Something Awesome: It is what it is. At 20th level, a Wizard gets something awesome.

The Generalist Spell list

[spoiler]1st - Alarm, Endure Elements, Hold Portal, Mage Armor, Mount, Obscuring Mist, Unseen Servant, Comprehend Languages, True Strike, Charm Person, Burning Hands, Magic Missile, Shocking Grasp, Tenser's Floating Disk, Disguise Self, Silent Image, Cause Fear, Animate Rope, Enlarge/Reduce Person, Erase, Expeditious Retreat, Feather Fall, Jump

2nd - Grease, Summon Monster I, Hypnotism, Color Spray, Ray of Enfeeblement, Arcane Lock, Obscure Object, Protection from Arrows, Resist Energy, Fog Cloud, Melf's Acid Arrow, See Invisibility, Daze Monster, Continual Flame, Darkness/Daylight, Flaming Sphere, Gust of Wind, Scorching Ray, Shatter, Blur, Invisibility, Minor Image, Misdirection, Blindness/Deafness, False Life, Scare, Darkvision, Knock, Levitate, Pyrotechnics, Spider Climb, Whispering Wind

3rd - Glitterdust, Summon Monster II, Summon Swarm, Web, Touch of Idiocy, Hypnotic Pattern, Nondetection, Protection from Energy, Phantom Steed, Sepia Snake Sigil, Sleet Storm, Tongues, Deep Slumber, Heroism, Hold Person, Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Wind Wall, Major Image, Ray of Exhaustion, Blink, Fly, Haste, Slow

4th - Dispel Magic, Stinking Cloud, Summon Monster III, Dimensional Anchor, Fire Trap, Dimension Door, Solid Fog, Arcane Eye, Charm Monster, Crushing Despair, Fire Shield, Ice Storm, Shout, Greater Invisibility, Bestow Curse, Contagion, Fear, Mass Enlarge/Reduce Person, Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer

5th - Summon Monster IV, Minor Creation, Detect Scrying, Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, Dismissal, Teleport, Prying Eyes, Hold Monster, Symbol of Sleep, Bigby's Interposing Hand, Cone of Cold, Dream, False Vision, Nightmare, Persistent Image, Blight, Waves of Fatigue, Overland Flight, Passwall, Telekinesis

6th - Cloudkill, Summon Monster V, Dominate Person, Wall of Force, Antimagic Field, Repulsion, True Seeing, Greater Heroism, Symbol of Persuasion, Bigby's Forceful Hand, Chain Lightning, Permanency, Otiluke's Freezing Sphere, Permanent Image, Programmed Image, Eyebite, Symbol of Fear, Control Water, Flesh to Stone, Mordenkainen's Lucubration

7th - Greater Dispel Magic, Acid Fog, Summon Monster VI, Disintegrate, Banishment, Sequester, Drawmij's Instant Summons, Phase Door, Plane Shift, Greater Teleport, Teleport Object, Mass Hold Person, Power Word Blind, Bigby's Grasping Hand, Mordenkainen's Sword, Prismatic Spray, Mass Invisibility, Finger of Death, Waves of Exhaustion, Control Weather

8th - Spell Turning, Summon Monster VII, Delayed Blast Fireball, Ethereal Jaunt, Protection from Spells, Incendiary Cloud, Moment of Prescience, Greater Prying Eyes, Mass Charm Monster, Demand, Power Word Stun, Bigby's Clenched Fist, Otiluke's Telekinetic Sphere, Polar Ray, Scintillating Pattern, Horrid Wilting

9th - Dimensional Lock, Summon Monster VIII, Temporal Stasis, Imprisonment, Gate, Refuge, Mass Hold Monster, Bigby's Crushing Hand, Astral Projection, Time Stop, Limited Wish[/spoiler]

[bkdubs123]

Of course the spell list above is just with the normal PHB spell lists taken into consideration. If you wanted to work with spells from PHB2, or from Spell Compendium or Complete Arcane, etc, keep in mind that you should delay some of the more powerful effects by a level or two, and/or completely remove spells that seem to step on the toes of the Specialist caster classes (for example I ignored a lot of undead manipulation, powerful charms and illusions, and scrying effects with the Generalist list since those are fairly iconic to their particular specialists).

[ZeroSum]

Question: Is there a reason he gets Detect Magic as a (Sp) even though he can cast it at will as a cantrip?

[bkdubs123]

LOL, right... ignore that.

[Kuroimaken]

It's my opinion that people that have magic as their primary job description shouldn't need to waste a fraction of their personal power to sense it.

Who's up for making Detect Magic a function of Spellcraft to begin with?

[bkdubs123]

*eagerly raises hand*

What do you think of the generalist wizard I presented? Basically, I just introduced some MAD, gave it some interesting chances to gain versatility, rid it of complete reliance on spellbook and fiddled with the spellbook. Did I succeed in making it still viable and still a toolbox without being ridiculously overpowered?

[Kuroimaken]

*eagerly raises hand*

What do you think of the generalist wizard I presented? Basically, I just introduced some MAD, gave it some interesting chances to gain versatility, rid it of complete reliance on spellbook and fiddled with the spellbook. Did I succeed in making it still viable and still a toolbox without being ridiculously overpowered?

The MAD is unnecessary. Introducing MAD to a class in order to weaken it doesn't work very well. Otherwise, not too shabby, but I'm not sure I wouldn't play a specialist over this still...

[bkdubs123]

The MAD is unnecessary. Introducing MAD to a class in order to weaken it doesn't work very well.

I disagree on both counts. I introduced the MAD both because I thought it was unfair that warrior types automatically have MAD for Str or Dex and Con (if not all of those three AND more), but also because it definitely does make the class weaker (which is needed in my opinion). If it's too much make the save DCs dependent on Wis instead of Cha, but I'm not sure.

Otherwise, not too shabby, but I'm not sure I wouldn't play a specialist over this still...

Well, that's the conundrum isn't it. I deliberately left some spells completely off the list instead of making them available at later levels. This way a Dread Necro and a Beguiler always have their own tricks up their sleeves that the Generalist Wizard simply can't match (except through advanced learning of course). Advanced Learning might be the problem here, and can probably be removed altogether.

[bkdubs123]

Something else to consider Robby, just to make Warmage a little more attractive, is maybe to allow all spellcasters to add their "key ability modifier" to damage with damage dealing spells a la Warmage's Edge, but allow only the Warmage to deal Int times spell level extra damage.

So a Wizard with 30 Int, casting a Polar Ray deals 20d6+10 cold damage, but a Warmage with 30 Int deals 20d6+90 cold damage! Definitely makes blasting with the specialist blaster seem a lot more awesome.