D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]

[RobbyPants]

As for the Shake it Off, how about allowing a single reroll on Fort/Will saves one round after the original save to clear the effect? Sorta like Resurgence.

Where does Resurgence come from?

DR, double it during a rage? Wouldn't the Fast Healing while raging mean that once the barbarian gets it, along with the /encounter rage, he has essentially unlimited stamina? I'd say, instead of fast healing, replenish the temp hp every round of the rage.

Interesting.  It would make them very tanky.  I do like this idea better than a flat out fast healing.  We just have to cap the temp HP at 2 x HD (or 3 x with Greater Rage).

Not so sure about the pounce though,.

I don't think pounce breaks the game at level 1 or anything.  I just wanted to hold the ability back a bit to keep from front-loading the class.  Otherwise, every melee character is part barbarian, just to get that one ability that's too good to pass up.

I'm iffy about giving them fast healing. Remember, fast healing isn't as strong in-combat as it is out of it.

True.  Plus, you could just spam rage out of combat to gain the fast healing anyway.  I don't think it breaks the game, but I think it would just look stupid.  Picture the barbarian after the fight routinely getting so pissed that he heals a bit until he gets too tired to contine.

Shake it Off (possibly with Mettle) seems more a Barbarian thing than a Fighter thing, if it is one or the other.

I agree.  I don't want fighters to have this and barbarians not to have it.  I don't care if it's the same ability, but I want them to have something similar.

Other than the Will aspect (Which barbarians have no more reason to excel at than fighters, and "all good saves" for anyone just...doesn't ring right.), Mettle does sound very fitting. A good "I  at your puny spells." Maybe a "Mettle while raging" instead of in general?

I like the idea of only getting it while raging.  I've avoided giving various classes mettle, just because so many people seem to have an aversion to it.  Still, I agree that it might make a lot of sense here.  Perhaps at a high level, it could be upgraded to an "improved" Mettle later (similar to Improved Evasion).

I'm not sure I'd go that far. Being able to fly into a rage instantly doesn't feel right.

If you catch a barbarian off guard (good luck!), I'm not sure I see why he should be able to unleash his rage instantly.

I like it in that it makes it easy for the player.  The closest mechanic to a less controllable rage I've seen is the Frenzied Berzerker's frenzy ability.  They need to make Will saves when they take damage to actually avoid it.  Still, it could be a pain in the ass waiting to get hit in order to make your character effective.

[veekie]

[RobbyPants]

Thanks for posting that.  I agree that Mettle might do the trick.  I do like the idea of granting it while the barbarian is raging.  The question is, what level does he get it?  I'm not sure I want to bundle it with Rage at 1st level.  They get Trap Sense at 3rd level, which sucks, so that seems like a good time to do it.  Plus, I think that's the level hexblades get Mettle too.

[veekie]

If Mettle got put in there, you could ditch Trap sense entirely even.

[Kuroimaken]

Mettle is surprisingly underrated for its usefulness. Not a lot of ways to get it, though I feel that it gets more useful towards the mid-to-end game, unless the DM is really fond of poisons/diseases or traps that target Fort.

[RobbyPants]

I agree.  Reflex-based saves are much more scary at lower levels than they are at higher levels, and Fort/Will-based saves are much more scary at the mid-high level game.

Is an "improved" version of Mettle too powerful at a high level (I'm thinking 13+ or so)?  If it works like Improved Evasion, then you would only suffer the lesser effects of a Fort/Will spell on a failed save.  I understand that Fort/Will saves are different from Reflex saves, because the latter is often a case of full or half damage.  Fort/Will saves, however, typcially carry much more drastic consequences if you fail the save.  This would effectively make the barbarian immune to most save-or-dies.

Maybe it's a good capstone, if nothing else.

[Elennsar]

I am leaning towards supporting it as a capstone (but not a normal ability to be treated as just an equivalant of Improved Evasion).

"Immune to save or dies" is a big thing, after all.

Though, if the Barbarian is succeeding on one on a 5, maybe not.

[Kuroimaken]

Let's not forget our Conan-wannabe buddy is already pretty Fort-focused (primary save + Con is a huge benefit). "Improved" Mettle might prove to be a little overkill, though there aren't that many Fort: Partial effects in the game.

[RobbyPants]

I figure a barbarian is going to make almost any Fort save thrown at him by a level-appropriate source.  It's the Will saves that he will benifit most from.

[veekie]

Improved Mettle is basically partial immunity to a bagful of SoDs and debuffs isn't it? I'd say it's alright, if it's a capstone(somewhere in the last 3 levels sound about right for this) or similar level ability

[Kuroimaken]

Improved Mettle is basically partial immunity to a bagful of SoDs and debuffs isn't it? I'd say it's alright, if it's a capstone(somewhere in the last 3 levels sound about right for this) or similar level ability

I'd be okay with giving it as a level 15 ability, even. Not so late that it doesn't matter anymore and not so early that it screws balance over.

[RobbyPants]

Here's a tenative class progression for the barbarian.  I've only defined any new or changed abilities.  The rest are per the PHB.  I'll need to reword the abilities later.  I only put up a quick definition at this point.  Changes to the standard progression have been bolded for emphasis.

___________________________

1   Fast movement, illiteracy, rage 1/encounter
2   Uncanny dodge
3   Trap sense +1, Rage (Mettle)
4   Rage +2 rounds
5   Improved uncanny dodge
6   Trap sense +2, PounceRage (Damage Reduction)
8   Rage +4 roundsGreater rage
12  Rage +6 roundsRage (Improved Mettle)Rage +8 roundsMighty rage, Rage +10 rounds

Rage: Per the PHB with the following exceptions: the barbarian can use rage once per encounter instead of per day.  Instead of gaining a +4 bonus on Constitution, the barbarian instead gainst a +2 morale bonus on Fortitude saves and a number of temporary hit points equal to double his hit dice.

The moral bonus to fortitude saves increases to +3 at 11th level when the barbarian gains Greater Rage and to +4 at 20th level when he gains Mighty Rage.  His temporary hit points increase to triple his hit dice at 11th level and four times his hit dice at 20th level.

As the barbarian gains levels, the duration of his rage increases.  Every four levels, his rage lasts two rounds longer.

Rage (Mettle): At 3rd level, the barbarian gains Mettle when he is raging.

Pounce: At 6th level, the barbarian gains Pounce.

Rage (Damage Reduction): At 7th level, the damage reduction gained from barabrian class levels is doubled while raging.

Rage (Improved Mettle): At 15th level, when the barbarian is raging, he gains Improved Mettle.  This works exactly like Mettle, except on a failed save, he only takes the partial effects instead of the full effects of the spell or ability.

[Kuroimaken]

Y'know, I keep wondering why the Barbarian has Trap sense at all. I always figured that was a Rogue thing...

[RobbyPants]

Yeah, I certainly don't see it as crucial.  I left it in, because ultimately I'm trying to avoid chanigng things that don't need changing.  I guess I could take it out and place in some other ability(s).

How do you feel about this version?  Does it need some temporary hit point replenishing?

[veekie]

Replenishing temp hp, I think yes, but how to handle it?
2xHD temp hp in first round of rage and HD temp hp every round after?
Flat 2xHD temp hp every round?

[Elennsar]

Well, in 3e, Trap Sense was part of Uncanny Dodge (Emperor forsake me if I know why, however).

So I suppose its a legacy of that bad decision. I'm pretty sure every class in the game as written that has Uncanny Dodge got Trap Sense as well.

I am realllly leery about granting Barbarians (either in general or as a totem or whatever) Pounce. It makes a raging charging barbarian a little too powerful.

After all, the -2 to AC becomes rather minor when he can do so much damage in one round.

As for DR and rage: So he gets the ability to double his DR while raging...at the same time he gets any DR?

Since even 10/- (the max barring feats and such boosting it) may not be all that much at high level, that might not be too bad. But it sounds odd.

Admitedly, part of that is my reluctance to support the barbarian being "utterly terrifying when raging and weak when not". I'd like to make rage one of the things he can do, but not the only way the class can survive.

Maybe that'd be too much of a rewrite. Just thinking aloud here, the only actual concern is Pounce.

[Eldariel]

Well, in 3e, Trap Sense was part of Uncanny Dodge (Emperor forsake me if I know why, however).

The background in this is basically that Uncanny Dodge means you've got a sixth sense for danger. Having full AC before combat does that vs. opponents, but it does not impact traps. Therefore, Trap Sense signifies this same sixth sense with regards to traps. In the same way, the "cannot be flanked" is a stronger version of this same sense - you know when all of your opponent are attacking (thanks to the "sensing" the attack coming, just like you "sense" the surprise attacks and so on) without actually having to observe them so you aren't impaired by being unable to follow them both constantly.

[Elennsar]

The problem is, being good at fighting even when surrounded and hard to catch off guard do not necessarily indicate the same kind of reflexes that makes you better able to survive setting off a trap.

[Kuroimaken]

The background in this is basically that Uncanny Dodge means you've got a sixth sense for danger. Having full AC before combat does that vs. opponents, but it does not impact traps. Therefore, Trap Sense signifies this same sixth sense with regards to traps. In the same way, the "cannot be flanked" is a stronger version of this same sense - you know when all of your opponent are attacking (thanks to the "sensing" the attack coming, just like you "sense" the surprise attacks and so on) without actually having to observe them so you aren't impaired by being unable to follow them both constantly.

And I still find that ability belongs on a Rogue and not so much on a Barbarian. But I digress.

We might want to avoid placing Pounce too early, however, so as to avoid the typical dipping conundrum (Rage, Uncanny Dodge and Improved, Mettle AND Pounce? Granted, 6 levels is a somewhat hefty investment to call it "dipping", but the benefits really outweigh the costs). Push it back just a couple more levels or so.

Also remember, Pounce can be really overrated since the subsequent attacks do NOT gain hit bonuses beyond the charge.

[Elennsar]

Right, but you still get the mobility of a charge and a full attack, which is nothing to be take lightly.

I know I'd be very interested in it as a Barbarian6/Something Else.

Even with the non-Lawful requirement.