Improved Dwarven Defender

[bkdubs123]

Fighter: I need an item that lets me fly.
Wizard: I need to remember to prepare fly.

THAT is the problem.

The Defender needs to avoid that situation.

How is a Dwarven Defender supposed to avoid that situation without arbitrarily giving it the ability to fly as a class feature for no reason? You're not describing a problem with the PrC as written, but a problem with the entire game as written. I'm just not understanding what you think a Dwarven Defender should be able to do about Flying/Incorporeality/Etc with his class features.

[Elennsar]

Well, personally, I wouldn't mind those being the two "definate loss" if it had two other "definate win", and the others were evenly split between "possible win" and "possible lose".

But that means it needs to be able to deal with an equal number of "definate win" scenarios to the "definate lose", and "possible win" vs. "possible lose", and currently it doesn't.

[bkdubs123]

Well, I'd give the Defender a definite win against the Marut, so it comes out pretty close to even then. I'd also give the Defender a draw against the Dragon considering if he's going to fight a dragon he's going to be flying.

[Elennsar]

Not necessarily. A dragon could take advantage of the fact that he isn't and attack him.

Being unable to deal with flying creatures without flying himself makes this a loss. It may be something Individual Character With Flying Boots can deal with, but the Defender does not grant or enhance any abilities to deal with it.

And as stated, having to get equipment just to not get pwned doesn't mean you're not weak against that. By that logic, any weakness can be overcome, just have the doohickey...and we're not measuring doohickeys. We're measuring classes and what someone built to do what the class is designed to do can/can't face.

I don't want any class or individual character ever having "all definate win" scenarios. I want a well built Defender with the kind of things Defenders would have because of what they do to be able to definately win, possibly win, who knows (too close to call), possibly lose, and definately lose an even number of times.

As stated, as written, this is not working.

[bkdubs123]

Okay, Elennsar, what do you think a Defender should definitely win against, and how is it not working as written? It has 2 definite wins, 2 definite losses, 1 probable win, and 2 probable losses in 7 encounters. Out of those 7 encounters we are putting him up against 2 encounters in which all of the enemies are flying, 1 encounter where the wizard will almost certainly be flying, and 1 encounter where all of the enemies are incorporeal. That's over half that are targeting his weaknesses, and he's basically putting up just under half success rate. I'd say it's actually working as should be expected.

[Elennsar]

The fact that the he has two probable losses but only one probable win.

He is more likely to lose (4/7) than win (3/7).

3/7=42%. Give or take.

[bkdubs123]

Okay, well, in an odd number of encounters he's either going to win more than half or lose more than half. And again, over half of the encounters are one of the two things that he is very weak against - Flight/Incorporeality. The two types of encounters basically ALL mundane warrior types are going to be weak against.

[Elennsar]

The problem is that the only people who aren't are also the people who pwn everything else.

Which is a seperate issue.

If eveyone else also had a 3/4 win/loss, it'd be okay.

But "magic" should not mean "I can deal with any encounter" when "nonmagical" does not.

So, the question is: Does he deal with the encounters he should be able to?

Personally, I'd like him to be able to draw the dragon...it can't hurt him effectively and he can't hurt it effectively.

So, let's see how about the other things.

A 15th level rogue (with or without assassin levels).
A 15th level fighter (Robby's rebalanced 3.5 thread version)

[bkdubs123]

Well, what about replacing the huge amount of temporary hit points with a reasonable amount of Damage Reduction and Energy Resistance? DR X/-- equal to his class level +1/2 his non-Defender class levels. 1/2 his character level? Energy Resistance against all types of energy equal to the same, or against one type of energy equal to 5 times that amount (whenever he enters the stance he chooses the type)? That would make him fare better against the Dragon, but also maybe slightly better against the traps, and probably no change to the other encounters.

Honestly I still say he does draw the dragon. You say the dragon might ambush him. I say, he's level 15. If he doesn't have boots of flying he's still got a party, he's just going to be wasting their daily resources rather than a fraction of his large sum of WBL. A Dwarven Defender is never going to be ambushed by a dragon while he's by himself in a real game, but even if the DM's a jerk and the Defender is, and he can't fly, the Defender isn't going to stick around and test his strength. He'll alert the rest of his party.

But then again, this is the problem with this test. It just devolves into a bunch of "what if" scenarios, and since, as you say, anyone can shore up any weakness with magic items it doesn't work to solve anything. DnD is a game with more than 1 player, and where every gameplay experience is different.

[Elennsar]

Yeah. But the DD needs to be able to contribute as much as everyone else. If -everyone- individually goes 3/7, that may be a problem, but its a different problem.

If its just him, something is wrong.

As for the dragon: Screw ambush. The dragon can play Parthian with him. Easily. Even with flying, the DD is still Parthianed.

[bkdubs123]

As for the dragon: Screw ambush. The dragon can play Parthian with him. Easily. Even with flyiny, the DD is still Parthianed.

Huh?

[Elennsar]

The dragon is faster (don't think he manuevers as well, assuming a fly or equivalant on the Defender) and can attack from a greater distance.

Thusly, he can Parthian the Defender unless the Defender can (completely) absorb his damage. Or avoid it completely. Either would do. (As in, either high enough DR or high enough AC)

Parthian tactics (IRL, horse archery against slower opponents) are painfully frustrating at best for the defender. You might lose, you might draw, but unless you can catch up and pin him in place, you cannot win.

[veekie]

I think a large amount of temp HP that replenishes frequently might help, though not beat the dragon on it's own. It's an inherent problem with any character limited to melee range without special mobility.

[Elennsar]

And without sufficient defenses to be able to do anything but wait until hit points are exhausted.

[veekie]

If the temp hp replenishes every round, the dragon would experience a serious desire to land and open up some full attacks on him. But at the very least, melee needs to move around more, mounts and exotic move modes are far more compulsory to a meleer than a wizard(who could just stand there and fire artillery).