Help with PC's Paladin

[kevin_video]

So I got a new player that wants to join my campaign, and she really likes the idea of the "white knight" but doesn't want to be a true knight, and she doesn't want to be someone who acts like they've got a stick up their @$$ 24/7. So, we're going with a paladin of freedom. I showed it to her, she read the description of it, and she loved it. The only thing she didn't like was that you lose Diplomacy for Bluff. I told her not to worry about that since the cleric and OA samurai have that covered.

Since she's coming into the story a little late, she'll be level 2 (as the others are going to be hitting their level up probably after the next fight). She's never actually played D&D before, but she wants to give it a shot (she's played every other RPG out there both dice and MMO).

I haven't built a paladin in a long time so I'm rusty. I am pushing for the Dynamic Priest feat though as that would make sense, but a low Will save for a paladin doesn't seem all the great either. She's not sure what she wants for stats, but she's it well rounded.

The rules for stats are: same as an NPC's (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) + 6 points put anywhere, but no stat may be higher than 18 before racial bonuses. She's going human.

I was thinking STR 16 DEX 10, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 12, CHA 16.

Gear will be masterwork banded mail, heavy wooden shield, and a masterwork longsword. She'll be getting the haversack for free (everyone in my campaign does). I'll also give her the standard adventurer's kit from PHB2 (minus the pack), and a wooden holy symbol.

After looking at the Paladin handbook, I think having her be a Mystic Fire Knight would be cool, but that'll be up to her in the end. However, that's a ways away yet. I also think Charging Smite is a better replacement. She'll also be getting the dead levels from the WE. Again, that's a ways away. Not sure about the second feat yet though. There's a lot of feats that are in the blue color on the handbook that would probably work (even at 2nd level). I'm also considering the handle animal to gather information switch.

After that, she's still got 215 gold.

[Ret]

I haven't built a paladin in a long time so I'm rusty. I am pushing for the Dynamic Priest feat though as that would make sense, but a low Will save for a paladin doesn't seem all the great either.

Could use the Force of Personality feat (CAdv pg.109) to get Charisma to will saves instead of Wisdom?

[kevin_video]

I haven't built a paladin in a long time so I'm rusty. I am pushing for the Dynamic Priest feat though as that would make sense, but a low Will save for a paladin doesn't seem all the great either.

Could use the Force of Personality feat (CAdv pg.109) to get Charisma to will saves instead of Wisdom?

Could do that. I don't remember seeing that on the on the list of feats on the handbook. It's definitely an idea worth considering.

[Rebel7284]

She's a paladin, her saves should be high enough.  I'd focus on her melee capabilities.  Get a reach weapon so she can get a free attack from anyone that tries to charge her.  Also, if you're already giving up mount, trade ride for tumble.  Tumbling is essential for battlefield mobility.

Perhaps Combat Reflexes and Standstill as the first two feats then power attack at 3rd.

Stats:
18 Str
14 Dex
14(or 16) Con
8 Int
10 Wis
14(or 12)  Cha

Edit: By the way, both crusader and cleric are better than paladin and can easily be played with the same flavor.

[BrainCandy]

I've gotta agree with Rebel. Paladin is only really good for mounted charger builds because the mount is the classes best feature. If your player does not want to do mounted combat, I'd steer the player towards Crusader, or Cleric with a dip into Prestige Paladin.

[Rebel7284]

Ironically druids do mounted combat better

although, druids do everything better until level 17.  At level 17, wizards are better

[kevin_video]

She's a paladin, her saves should be high enough.  I'd focus on her melee capabilities.  Get a reach weapon so she can get a free attack from anyone that tries to charge her.  Also, if you're already giving up mount, trade ride for tumble.  Tumbling is essential for battlefield mobility.

Perhaps Combat Reflexes and Standstill as the first two feats then power attack at 3rd.

Stats: 18 Str 14 Dex 14(or 16) Con 8 Int 10 Wis 14(or 12)  Cha

Edit: By the way, both crusader and cleric are better than paladin and can easily be played with the same flavor.

I must be missing something because Paladin's only have a strong Fort, and even with their ability to add their CHA mod to all their saves, 12 CHA isn't going to cut it. Especially at lvl 2.

I should have mentioned the tumble thing. That's pretty much a given with me regardless, but the penalty you have thanks to heavy armour is ludicrous. Not to mention lack of skill points. And with that 8 INT, that's not going to help at all. Yes you're human and you get more skill points, but only have 1 rank in all skills doesn't help you. Especially when you don't have much for DEX, and are wearing heavier armour. And if you take Combat Reflexes, Standstill, and Power Attack are your feats, then you might as well take a non-spellcasting Paladin because you're going to be useless otherwise. Even if you take a level of cleric you're still useless with only 10 WIS. That stat build would be fine for Crusader, maybe.

Speaking of which, Crusader is not an option. This is someone who's the very epitome of "green" for D&D. She looked at what classes I was open to, and ToB intimidated her. I didn't push, and I won't. Paladin of Freedom is what she chose, so that's what she's taking.

[Ret]

I suppose Sword of the Arcane Order is out if she doesn't like the look of Tome of Battle classes. How about something like this for a basic, non charger melee paladin:

18 str
10 or 12 dex
14 con
12 or 10 int
8 wis
16 cha

Take Power Attack + Force of Personality at first level, dip into cleric at third and take Divine Might (CWar pg.106, Cha to damage as a free action for a full round for a turn attempt). Then go back into paladin and pick up the Knight of the Mystic Fire sub levels and grab Battle Blessing at 6th for free quickened spells. Not really sure where to go from there, but that seems like a decent base.

Edit: I just remembered, there is a Dragon mag feat called Serenity that makes Lay on Hands/Divine Grace/Turn key off wisdom. That could be another option for you.

[kevin_video]

Again, I have to bring up the lack of WIS. I don't see the Priest feats. or any feats that go "Use this stat for magic instead of your original". Why would you ever go cleric and paladin if your stat for spellcasting doesn't exist? Mystic Fire is useless if you can't cast. And with 8 WIS, you can't.

[Ret]

Again, I have to bring up the lack of WIS. I don't see the Priest feats. or any feats that go "Use this stat for magic instead of your original". Why would you ever go cleric and paladin if your stat for spellcasting doesn't exist? Mystic Fire is useless if you can't cast. And with 8 WIS, you can't.

Haha, wow, can't believe I missed that. Swap Power Attack for Dynamic Priest, get Power Attack at third and Divine Might at 9th (If at all). Could also drop the Cleric dip if you drop Divine Might.

Edit: Can you take Dynamic Priest without having the spellcasting for that class yet?

[Solo]

Why has Serenity not been mentioned yet?

[kevin_video]

I would say that Dynamic Priest could be taken before you have your spellcasting because you can only take it at first level. Now unless there's a paladin build like the mystic ranger, there'd be no way to go "no you can't" because you can't justify it any other way. At least not really.

I think no one's mentioned Serenity yet because she's only lvl 2. If she was lvl 3, then it'd probably get mentioned. But that's quite true. While it's all fine and good to have a decent CHA, having it be average and then taking that feat at 3rd would be a really good idea too. Maybe make her CHA 12, and have a high WIS, and then when she gains that feat at 3rd, she'll be really powerful by comparison.

[McPoyo]

So...wait. She's a paladin with no spellcasting or mount, and very low charisma, so smiting is largely irrelevant? Why not play a Fighter and act like a paladin? It'd be more effective in combat, and you aren't actually losing anything other than lay on hands and 1/week remove disease at this point.

[Havok4]

Crusader would likely be best for this character but if paladin is decided serenity would be the best choice for the character as it helps relieve the MAD.

[kevin_video]

So...wait. She's a paladin with no spellcasting or mount, and very low charisma, so smiting is largely irrelevant? Why not play a Fighter and act like a paladin? It'd be more effective in combat, and you aren't actually losing anything other than lay on hands and 1/week remove disease at this point.

That's pretty much how the builds are looking right now. I'm confident that with the suggestions I can pull something off.

[McPoyo]

But that's my point. If the only difference is healing herself for her level as a standard action each day, and preventing mummy rot, vs several extra feats to make her more effective in combat, I am not seeing why paladin is still being chosen. Maybe I'm just confused, but a Paladin of Freedom could be played the same way using fighter, and just roleplaying the paladin part.

[Havok4]

Another possible option is Binder, they do the whole paladin thing better than an actual paladin, especially with KotSS.

[Rebel7284]

I must be missing something because Paladin's only have a strong Fort, and even with their ability to add their CHA mod to all their saves, 12 CHA isn't going to cut it. Especially at lvl 2.

Even with only 12 Cha, that's still a free cloak of resistance that stacks with everything.  If you go with 14 Cha, it's +2.  Also Paladin of Freedom become immune to compulsion effects next level.  This means she's immune to:
Sleep, Hold Person, Command, Dominate Person, etc.  Most of these are popular spells that require a will save.  Perhaps I shouldn't have been AS dismissive about saves, but the should a bit higher on average than other characters.  If she is worried about it, putting a 14 in Cha and then buying a +1 cloak when it's available and then a +2 Cha Item when you can afford it should take care of it.

I should have mentioned the tumble thing. That's pretty much a given with me regardless, but the penalty you have thanks to heavy armour is ludicrous. Not to mention lack of skill points. And with that 8 INT, that's not going to help at all. Yes you're human and you get more skill points, but only have 1 rank in all skills doesn't help you. Especially when you don't have much for DEX, and are wearing heavier armour.

Tumble is only DC15 for its normal use.  I will admit that a character like this will have trouble hitting that DC at this level in a reliable way.  However, it should be achievable before too long and is certainly better than not having any mobility options in combat.

And if you take Combat Reflexes, Standstill, and Power Attack are your feats, then you might as well take a non-spellcasting Paladin because you're going to be useless otherwise.

I'm confused about this statement.  As you suggesting she would be better off focusing on casting?  Battle Blessing is an option at higher levels certainly.  Also a paladin WILL eventually feel useless as compared to full casters.

Even if you take a level of cleric you're still useless with only 10 WIS. That stat build would be fine for Crusader, maybe.

I assume a +2 Item eventually if she is interested in spells or a cleric dip.  Paladin spells ARE weak enough, however, that spell-less version is an option especially if the campaign won't go into higher levels.  And yes, a crusader would work even better with these feats because of thicket of blades, why does this make it worse for a paladin?

Speaking of which, Crusader is not an option. This is someone who's the very epitome of "green" for D&D. She looked at what classes I was open to, and ToB intimidated her. I didn't push, and I won't. Paladin of Freedom is what she chose, so that's what she's taking.

Fair enough, and pure melee classes are certainly viable at lower level.

By the way, once she has turn undead, she should consider divine feats.  Animal Devotion, etc.

[kevin_video]

But that's my point. If the only difference is healing herself for her level as a standard action each day, and preventing mummy rot, vs several extra feats to make her more effective in combat, I am not seeing why paladin is still being chosen. Maybe I'm just confused, but a Paladin of Freedom could be played the same way using fighter, and just roleplaying the paladin part.

The point is, is she chose this class. End of story. I'm just trying to make her a viable character, and the suggestions I'm getting, while not great for a paladin in general (most for Crusader even though that's not an option, or for higher level classes that actually have magical items available to them), are still suggestions that I can play around with and hopefully create something good. She won't be the best at 2nd level, but come 3rd level she should be able to more than hold her own. And we've chosen the Self Haste X/day variant instead of the remove disease x/week variant.

[McPoyo]

Did you explain to her that flavor isn't tied to a class, and she would be a better paladin if she weren't taking levels in paladin? I've had several players who changed their mind with that simple sentence, before, when first introduced to DnD.

But if she is dead set, I agree that a reach weapon + combat reflexes + PA + Trip build would be good. If she had a means to get large sized, I'd recommend Knockback, as well, but...