Brilliant Gameologists Forum
The Thinktank => Min/Max It! => : Agita November 28, 2008, 07:12:05 PM
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Okay... so I signed up for something crazy. I'll be playing in a PbP campaign on Gleemax set in modern-day earth (or rather, in 2012), which starts at level 1 and hopes to go as far as possible. Now here's the crazy: Every PC, and a good number of antagonists, starts at Divine Rank 0, with all associated abilities. At every five levels (5th, 10th, 15th, etc.), one gains another divine rank, and the Salient Ability that goes with it. There are more house rules (a ton of them, in fact), but this is by far the most important. For a full listing, see here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1118333). Note that it isn't said anywhere that the PCs have to work together. They come "from any background, any walk of life, even any age, from child to elderly." They might not even know each other (is how I'm interpreting this). Taking over the world seems like a good objective. >_>
Now, how do you optimize against opponents that are immune to tons of stuff and have insane SR?
The first concept that came to mind was a Warlock... then I realized that the Warlock signature ability Eldritch Blast allows SR, and deities are immune to almost all of it abilities that don't.
Aniother idea I had was somehow becoming higher level than the others, thus eventually having a higher divine rank. This would allow me to bypass most of the lesser gods' immunities. For example, one could Dominate one of them into giving one a divine rank. This would require getting through their SR, but SpC is allowed, so Assay Spell Resistance is available. Item Familiar could work. Sadly, LA counts towards the levels at which you gain ranks (for example, a half-dragon Barbarian 7 would have two, since he's ECL 10), so my initial hope of overcoming NPCs who are stupid enough to take high-LA templates is shattered.
Meleers seem like they might have the least trouble getting to other gods at low levels, but ToB isn't in. Maybe a Barbarian would be a good option?
IotSV also comes to mind. IIRC, its veils don't offer Spell Resistance.
Regarding Salient Divine Abilities, reaching 29 Cha asap seems like a must for Alter Reality. However, this being PbP, the campaign is liable to die before that, so I don't know if it's feasible to actively work towards it.
Another consideration that Nox_Noctis suggested is to somehow (Charm Person/Suggestion on a large scale, maybe?) get the government to issue a kind of Registration Act against the divine ones (while, of course, pretending to be normal oneself), as was done in various instances in Marvel comics. Could be fun.
Pretty much just fishing for ideas for now. What do you guys think?
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Be a factotum. You can ignore spell resistance at any time :D. Starting at level whatever it is, you can just spend an inspiration point and ignore their spell resistance.
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Be a factotum. You can ignore spell resistance at any time :D. Starting at level whatever it is, you can just spend an inspiration point and ignore their spell resistance.
=/ Factotum isn't part of the allowed material, sadly. See also the link I provided. Looking back, maybe I shouldn't have hidden it in the text.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1118333 (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1118333)
For easier reference: [spoiler]
Player's Handbook
Dungeon Master's Guide
Monster Manual
Complete Adventurer
Complete Arcane
Complete Divine
Complete Scoundrel
Complete Warrior
Deities & Demigods (as updated in the Divine section of the SRD)
Epic SRD
Expanded Psionics Handbook
Libris Mortis
Manual of the Planes
Monster Manual 2
Monster Manual 3
Races of Eberron
Rules Compendium
Savage Species
Spell Compendium
Unearthed Arcana
D20 Modern (for equipment and other modern options, run it by me first)
[/spoiler]
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Wow... that sounds crazy, and fun. I like some of his house rules, also. I'd definitely consider some cha based character (caster?), seeing how alot of the SDAs are keyed off cha and have high cha prereqs.
These look good and have easy prereqs (still looking):
Automatic Metamagic, Alter Size (this one could be crazy...), Divine Air Mastery (perfect flight all the time), Divine Blast (no SR, crazy range and insane damage at the lower levels), Divine Fast Healing, Divine Shield.
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Yeah, I was just looking through salients and found that too. Note that you don't even have to know the feat.
DMM Cleric, eat your heart out. I am Persist's new best friend.
Control Creatures
Benefit:The deity can command some kind of creature as noted in the deity’s description. This ability is similar to the dominate monster spell, but it is not a mind-affecting ability (the deity seizes direct control over the creature’s body). Each day the deity can attempt to control a number of creature equal to its divine rank. The deity can attempt to take control of that number all at once, or in smaller numbers. All creatures to be affected must be within the deity’s line of sight when first affected. Once control is established, distance is not a factor and the deity can maintain control remotely, even across planes and through wards or barriers (except divine shields and warding spells cast by deities of higher rank than the deity using the ability). The subject is allowed a Will save (DC 10 + the deity’s rank + the deity’s Charisma modifier) to resist and is allowed a new save if the deity commands the subject to do something against its nature.
At any given time, the deity cannot have more creatures under its control than 10 times its divine rank. If the deity already has the maximum number of creatures under its control, it can still attempt to take control of other creatures, but must first release one or more creatures already under its control.
Notes
A deity can have this ability multiple times, choosing a different kind of creature each time.
This is also kind of awesome. Note that it's not mind-affecting, so you can use it on deities. Free divine ranks for everyone (Well, for me, anyway)! The DC kind of blows, but it's at will, so you can just keep going (from hiding, preferably) until they fail. Too bad gods don't auto-fail starting at rank 1.
EDIT: Does anyone know if there are Cha-based casters that use the Cleric or Druid list other than Favored Soul? With that, I could get Automatic etamagic to apply Persist to pretty much all my awesome buffs, and still get the jummy Cha synergies. Persisted Lesser Vigor should work for fulfilling Divine Fast Healing's Prereqs. Giving up a 1st-level slot for Fast Healing 22+ seems like a good trade to me.
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So, after looking through the Salient Abilities, I've made a sort of "wishlist" of abilities that are one or more of a) easy to qualify for, b) awesome, or c) so awesome they're worth working towards regardless of requirements.
Alter Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#alterForm) - At first I thought this was free Polymorph, but it doesn't grant AC or ability scores. The Fly speed is nice, but see Air Mastery.
Alter Reality (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#alterReality) - 'Nuff said.
Alter Size (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#alterSize) - No reqs, Free Action, be as big or small as you like. Pretty cool.
Automatic Metamagic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#automaticMetamagic) - This just screams "Optimigasm."
Avatar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#avatar) - Can you use this to give yourself infinite Divine Ranks (by having your avatars designate you as their proxy)?
Battlesense (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#battlesense) - Pretty nice.
Call Creatures (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#callCreatures) - I see potential for abuse, although the HD cap is annoying.
Command Plants (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#commandPlants) - Eh. Ok, I guess.
Control Creatures (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#controlCreatures) - I win. See below.
Divine Air Mastery (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#divineAirMasters) - 200 ft. fly speed (perfect). The bonuses are kinda nice, but pretty situational. The "Air Sense" doesn't specify to what extent you can sense the creatures (like Blindsense? Like Blindsight? Better or worse than either?), and it has limited range.
Divine Armor Mastery (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#divineArmorMastery) - Could be useful with Mithral Full Plate, if I somehow get my fingers on it.
Divine Blast (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#divineBlast) - Aside from the humorous mental image (The ray can look, sound, smell, and feel like anything), the ability to destroy prismatic walls and walls of force is pretty handy. The range is good, but the damage is rather crappy. I guess if I'm going for Alter Reality, I could take it since I'll have the prereq anyway.
Divine Earth Mastery (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#divineEarthMastery) - Looks pretty cool.
Divine Fast Healing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#divineFastHealing) - The req can be achieved with a Persisted Lesser Vigor (via Automatic Metamagic) per day.
Divine Fire Mastery (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#divineFireMastery) - Most of the stuff it gives is kinda meh, but the ability to duplicate any [fire] spell sounds pretty nice.
Divine Inspiration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#divineInspiration) - Could be nifty.
Divine Water Mastery (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#divineWaterMastery) - For completeness. I like the others better.
Extra Domain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#extraDomain) - More SLAs!
Gift of Life (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#giftOfLife) - Could be handy if humanity is dying out. Looking at it again, it doesn't specify what kind of creature it has to be, so I could use it on my divine buddies.
Grow Creature (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#growCreature) - Fun, if only for the Attack of the 50 Foot Whatever aspect.
Hand of Death (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#handOfDeath) - It's an at-will SoD vs. DC You-will-fail-this. Pity it's only vs. mortals. Even if they get a nat 20, they might die anyway.
Increased Spell Resistance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#increasedSpellResistance) - Exactly What It Says On The Tin. We already get pretty obscene SR though.
Instant Counterspell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#instantCounterspell) - I don't know if a counterspelling build would be viable. :-\
Know Death (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knowDeath) - Should be called Shinigami Eyes.
Know Sectrets (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knowSecrets) - Might come in handy. I don't know why they keep putting saves on stuff that's at will anyway.
Lay Quest (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#layQuest) - Works only on mortals, but it's a freakin' Geas.
Life and Death (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#lifeAndDeath) - A prereq for Mass Life and Death.
Mass life and Death (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#massLifeAndDeath) - Depopulation/Repopulation at will. Pretty much every creature on earth is within one mile of another creature. The divine rank req makes this unlikely, but it's just too cool.
Possess Mortal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#possessMortal) - Dominate on crack.
Power of Luck (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#powerofLuck) - Allround buff/debuff. The penalties are a little small compared to level of play, but affect a load of stuff.
Power of Nature (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#powerOfNature) - Can duplicate an 8th level spell at level 5. The rest is swell.
Power of Truth (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#powerOfTruth) - Ok, I guess.
Rejuvenation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#rejuvenation) - Neat stuff. The "can be killed by deities of equal or higher rank" clause is a bit of a let-down, though.
Shapechange (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#shapechange) - It's Polymorph. At will. As an (ex) ability.
Shift Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#shiftForm) - See above.
Sunder and Disjoin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#sunderAndDisjoin) - How to Be a Prick.
Supreme Initiative (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#supremeInitiative) - Always go first.
True Shapechange (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#trueShapechange) - Hooah.
On Command Creatures:
The obvious route is to choose "Human" or "Humanoid (Human)" as the kind of creature to control. Most of the other gods start out as humans, so they could be targeted with it. Then there's the other 6.5 billion humans on earth. If the DM vetoes this, as he's likely to do, I could narrow it down to "Gods" or "Beings with a divine rank of 1 or higher". There's a lot less of them around, ad they're the main target I'm going for. I'd need to find a single god that's a lower divine rank than me to bypass their immunity to compulsions (removal of the mind-affecting descriptor doesn't remove the compulsion subschool, does it? Someone proving me wrong on this would be nice), and I've got myself a divine bitch. If they have divine rank 1, I can force them to designate me as their proxy and give me their divine rank. Then I can dominate the other deities that are ower rank than me and have each give me a rank. And so on, and so forth. Salient Abilities always bypass SR, so that's not a problem either.
If the DM doesn't allow that either, I can instead narrow my choice down to "politicians" or "rich lobbyists". World domination ftw.
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DvR zero, is all about the immunities, and what synergies with them.
DvR one, is all about the Spell-likes from the Domains. Choose wisely.
The game should descend into rules arguing at this point.
Provided he's gonna use personal fast-nerf rules (ouch and random),
I'd pick safely broken stuff, like a domain with polymorph, or better polymorph any object.
Time stop with time stop again (and again) , prolly gets the nerf bat.
It's more about DM psychology than anything.
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DvR zero, is all about the immunities, and what synergies with them.
DvR one, is all about the Spell-likes from the Domains. Choose wisely.
The game should descend into rules arguing at this point.
Provided he's gonna use personal fast-nerf rules (ouch and random),
I'd pick safely broken stuff, like a domain with polymorph, or better polymorph any object.
Time stop with time stop again (and again) , prolly gets the nerf bat.
It's more about DM psychology than anything.
I disagree. It's not about the immunities, It's about how I overcome them. If I optimize for getting around immunities and the other gods don't, I have the upper hand, no?
As for SLAs, the DM wisely limited their acquisition. Once again, I recommend reading the thread. Not everything is in the OP. ;)
I'll be staggering that ability a bit. A Divine Rank 1 character will be able to spontaneously cast level 0 and level 1 spells, a Divine Rank 3 will be able to spontaneously cast level 2 spells, and so on. The same applies to spell-like abilities from domains.
That means 9th level SLAs won't be available till Divine Rank 17, or Level 85. It was recommended that the SLAs come a bit sooner, with 9th at 45 or so, but the DM hasn't yet reacted to that.
So Polymorph won't be available until DR 7, or level 35. By then I'll already be able to Persist Shapechange.
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2012? Classy. The end of the Mayan calendar. ;)
I'd definitely suggest Automatic Metamagic as your first. Your best bets are Persistant for Gish(obviously) or Twin/Quicken Spell for any other type of caster. Quicken has better versatility, but Twin drains your spell slots slower so there's a matter of preference.
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2012? Classy. The end of the Mayan calendar. ;)
Yeah, that's kind of the premise.
I'd definitely suggest Automatic Metamagic as your first. Your best bets are Persistant for Gish(obviously) or Twin/Quicken Spell for any other type of caster. Quicken has better versatility, but Twin drains your spell slots slower so there's a matter of preference.
I was thinking of going with Control Creatures first, actually... if I can control another deity and force them to give me their divine rank, I'll automatically get another Salient, after all.
If the DM vetoes that (likely), of course, then AMM it is.
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Command Creatures>Alter size>Gift of life (immortal armies)>Divine Fast healing (just get into warshaper somehow)
Ideally you'll turn the world against the other deities. You don't need to be good at killing them yourself.
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Since he's not letting rangers choose Humans as their favored enemies, I really doubt he's going to let you use Call/Command Creatures on humans, either (or deities...).
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Some random thoughts:
no magic items => creating them is a very valuable ability
- however, you don't want to give up XP!
- at level 5, people get their first salient divine ability, as well as the ability to "craft"
- this is incentive to play an artificer
complete adventurer => chameleon (+floating feat, boosts to attributes, etc.)
Cleric mechanic spontaneous domain casting = awesome. Get thee some extra domains
- gotta love the spell domain! Anyspell and greater anyspell ...
race change -> take it and get the free human feat
-> at a minimum, changling at 2nd level
Deities and Demigods / Epic SRD
Spell-Like Abilities -> anyspell / anyspell greater (once again)
how does the grant spells / spontaneous casting abilties work? What can you grant?
The familiar ability of dieties is sorta cool
Complete Psion
- Is the "Spell to Power" option for the Erudite allowed? Awesome if so
- The "Improved Overchannel" feat is pretty awesome ... HP are nothing
- look at the feat progression of the epic slayer: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/ei/ei20030110a
Note that there are really 4 different games
- levels 1-4 Class levels + Quasi-Diety (Divine Rank 0)
- levels 5-20 Class levels + Demi-God (Divine Rank 1-4)
- levels 21-29 Epic class levels + Demi-God (Divine rank 5)
- levels 30+ you are epic and Lesser God (Divine rank 6+)
I'd Optimize for each, with emphasis on the first ones.
Best,
David
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Command Creatures>Alter size>Gift of life (immortal armies)>Divine Fast healing (just get into warshaper somehow)
Ideally you'll turn the world against the other deities. You don't need to be good at killing them yourself.
True. Might be a bonus though - y'know, just in case they get uppity.
Since he's not letting rangers choose Humans as their favored enemies, I really doubt he's going to let you use Call/Command Creatures on humans, either (or deities...).
I'm aware of that. Even so, though, I'm pretty sure not all deities will advance at the same rate. When I'm rank 2, there will probably be some deity somewhere that hasn't reached 2 yet - and is thus vulnerable to my dominate. Command Creatures is still nice, tough, since I can probably narrow it down to, say, "politicians" or so.
no magic items => creating them is a very valuable ability
- however, you don't want to give up XP!
- at level 5, people get their first salient divine ability, as well as the ability to "craft"
- this is incentive to play an artificer
Problem: I don't see ECS in the list of allowed sources. Dunno why he doesn't have it if he has RoE.
complete adventurer => chameleon (+floating feat, boosts to attributes, etc.)
Cleric mechanic spontaneous domain casting = awesome. Get thee some extra domains
- gotta love the spell domain! Anyspell and greater anyspell ...
race change -> take it and get the free human feat
-> at a minimum, changling at 2nd level
Chameleon is in RoD, not CAdv.
I'm not sure what you mean with the race change. Everyone starts out as humans, so I get the free feat anyway. I don't think it stays if I change my race.
Deities and Demigods / Epic SRD
Spell-Like Abilities -> anyspell / anyspell greater (once again)
how does the grant spells / spontaneous casting abilties work? What can you grant?
The familiar ability of dieties is sorta cool
I've already explained the SLA progression, and it's kind of unfavorable. 0- and 1st-level SLAs at DR 1, 2nd at 3, 3rd at 5, etc.
Complete Psion
- Is the "Spell to Power" option for the Erudite allowed? Awesome if so
- The "Improved Overchannel" feat is pretty awesome ... HP are nothing
- look at the feat progression of the epic slayer: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/ei/ei20030110a
I'm not sure where you got the CP idea. It pretty explicitly isn't allowed.
Note that there are really 4 different games
- levels 1-4 Class levels + Quasi-Diety (Divine Rank 0)
- levels 5-20 Class levels + Demi-God (Divine Rank 1-4)
- levels 21-29 Epic class levels + Demi-God (Divine rank 5)
- levels 30+ you are awesome
I'd Optimize for each, with emphasis on the first ones.
Fixed that for you. ;)
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I take it you're using d20 Modern weapons and armor?
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I take it you're using d20 Modern weapons and armor?
Most likely. I'm pretty sure we're free to run around wielding greatswords and full plate, but that might a) look silly and b) not be overly effective if everyone has ranged weapons that do as much damage as said greatsword.
EDIT: Guns and stuff do have the problem that they require a separate feat.
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Agita, for that original idea you had (warlock), there's a feat in the Monster Manual called Supernatural Transformation. It turns spell-like abilities into supernatural ones, which aren't subject to Spell Resistance. Take it for what it's worth.
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Are you sure it's in the MM? I can't seem to find it under Monster Feats and Skills. It's not on crystalkeep either.
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Are you sure it's in the MM? I can't seem to find it under Monster Feats and Skills. It's not on crystalkeep either.
Savage species iirc
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Are you sure it's in the MM? I can't seem to find it under Monster Feats and Skills. It's not on crystalkeep either.
Savage species iirc
Ah yes, found it. Nice.
The next problem with Warlock is that it's not a casting class, and thus wouldn't gain the benefit of spontaneously casting every spell you can grant. :-\
New idea: A texan rancher with massive amounts of cows. Check out the Stampede (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bison.htm) ability. >_>
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Are you sure it's in the MM? I can't seem to find it under Monster Feats and Skills. It's not on crystalkeep either.
Sorry, for some reason I thought it was MM. It's a feat that went a long, long way for the epic level warlock my brother asked me to make for him. I really like the class.
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Alter Reality ASAP! It's like wish at will without the XP cost!
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Oops, you are right about the book list - my bad.
About the feat - I mean that you can change race to a changeling at 2nd level (for example), without losing the bonus feat of the human.
Also, you can see the progression for free online for the Chameleon, although you are right that I was mistaken about the source (google's cache of the link):
http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:pO85ESmiKEYJ:www.wizards.com/default.asp%3Fx%3Ddnd/iw/20041210b%26page%3D1+chameleon+dnd&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=firefox-a
Best,
David
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Alter Reality ASAP! It's like wish at will without the XP cost!
Yes, I think we already established that. The question is how to get it as early as possible. Since MM III is allowed, changing race to a Petal (+8 Cha) might work.
Oops, you are right about the book list - my bad.
About the feat - I mean that you can change race to a changeling at 2nd level (for example), without losing the bonus feat of the human.
Also, you can see the progression for free online for the Chameleon, although you are right that I was mistaken about the source (google's cache of the link):
http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:pO85ESmiKEYJ:www.wizards.com/default.asp%3Fx%3Ddnd/iw/20041210b%26page%3D1+chameleon+dnd&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=firefox-a
Best,
David
Sadly the DM isn't allowing anything he doesn't have in book form. He didn't allow Hellfire warlock (my initial idea) either.
I don't think you'd keep your feat if you change race, but I'll ask about that.
EDIT: Just got the reply. You do keep the feat, as well as any bonus skill points earned until that point, so that's pretty cool. You do lose any future bonus skill points and favored class (any).
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you might consider changing race to Succubus... they get +16 to Cha and only have +6 LA(with 6 HD) .... thus with these stats... you can get Alter Reality a little before 12th lvl(10th lvl probably)... and they already have a Savage Species Racial Class Progression to work with.. IIRC, you get at least +4 Cha right away
AT 12th lvl... including attribute boosts every 4 levels:
12 Str(10 +2 racial)
19 Dex(14 +2 racial +3 lvls)
16 Con(14 +2 racial)
20 Int(14 +6 racial)
14 Wis(10 +4 racial)
32 Cha(16 +16 racial)
@12th lvl you will be:
Rank 2 ... thus 3 Salient Abilities [spoiler]A deity has one salient divine ability for each divine rank the deity has, plus additional salient divine abilities reflecting its status: Demigods receive one bonus ability, lesser deities receive two bonus abilities, intermediate deities receive three, and greater deities receive five.[/spoiler] ... i would suggest these:
@3rd lvl:
Know Secrets
Extra Sense Enhancement(Vision)
@10th lvl:
Alter Reality
Irresistible Blows is another i would suggest @ 15th lvl
:D
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you might consider changing race to Succubus... they get +16 to Cha and only have +6 LA(with 6 HD) .... thus with these stats... you can get Alter Reality a little before 12th lvl(10th lvl probably)... and they already have a Savage Species Racial Class Progression to work with.. IIRC, you get at least +4 Cha right away
+2 Dex, +6 Cha, actually. It's an interesting idea, but the massive LA+HD make me squirm. >_<
@12th lvl you will be:
Rank 2 ... thus 3 Salient Abilities [spoiler]A deity has one salient divine ability for each divine rank the deity has, plus additional salient divine abilities reflecting its status: Demigods receive one bonus ability, lesser deities receive two bonus abilities, intermediate deities receive three, and greater deities receive five.[/spoiler] ... i would suggest these:
@3rd lvl:
Know Secrets
Extra Sense Enhancement(Vision)
@10th lvl:
Alter Reality
DM Rule 0'd the bonus salients, so we only get exactly 1 per rank. Also, we'd get our first one at 5th, not 3rd, but that's a minor issue.
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Being 6 hit dice behind means being a divine rank behind at all times even if you grind the xp. And being a divine rank behind means a lot more of their abilities work on you than yours work on them.
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Being 6 hit dice behind means being a divine rank behind at all times even if you grind the xp. And being a divine rank behind means a lot more of their abilities work on you than yours work on them.
As mentioned in the OP, you still get your Divine Ranks at the normal ECL, even with LA. I mentioned it only in passing, so you may have missed it. I actually hoped for that not to be true initially (as the DM previewed a few NPCs with insane LA and I was hoping for an easy Dominate on one of them).
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ok... still Succubus also get some nice Spell-like abilities(At will - charm monster (DC 22), detect good, detect thoughts (DC 20), ethereal jaunt (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), suggestion (DC 21), greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only).)... also they get :Damage reduction 10/cold iron or good, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to electricity and poison, resistance to acid 10, cold 10, and fire 10, telepathy 100 ft., tongues .....and fly 50 ft. (average), +9 Natural Armor, 2 Claw attacks(1d6+Str),Change Shape (Su): A succubus can assume the form of any Small or Medium humanoid.
still once you get Alter Reality before everyone else... you can really do a lot.... combined with Know Secrets+At Will Charm Monster+ huge Cha.... and any other Salient Ability that requires 29+Cha... you will get first
:D
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ok... still Succubus also get some nice Spell-like abilities(At will - charm monster (DC 22), detect good, detect thoughts (DC 20), ethereal jaunt (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), suggestion (DC 21), greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only).)... also they get :Damage reduction 10/cold iron or good, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to electricity and poison, resistance to acid 10, cold 10, and fire 10, telepathy 100 ft., tongues .....and fly 50 ft. (average), +9 Natural Armor, 2 Claw attacks(1d6+Str),Change Shape (Su): A succubus can assume the form of any Small or Medium humanoid.
still once you get Alter Reality before everyone else... you can really do a lot.... combined with Know Secrets+At Will Charm Monster+ huge Cha.... and any other Salient Ability that requires 29+Cha... you will get first
:D
The spell-likes are indeed nice, and ability to get Alter Reality at 10th is a huge plus. The DM might veto an ability that is essentially a better Wish at will without XP loss or material component, though. :-\ If that happens, I'm stuck with 6 or 7 d8 hit dice and without casting ability.
There's a bunch of other Salients that require Cha 29, and most Salients have Cha-based saves, but nothing quite as juicy as fricken' Alter Reality.
Right now, though, I should probably be worrying about my actual build, as the DM has announced that recruitment will be closed on friday.
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A venerable star elf gets +5 CHA with no LA.
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A venerable star elf gets +5 CHA with no LA.
Magic blooded?
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how soon can they get to Cha 29? .....
Magic blooded venerable star elf gets +7 CHA.... with starting Cha @ 16..... remember you get - 6 to Str, Dex, and -8 to Con...
starting @ 23 means you get 29 Cha @24th lvl... since there are no Magic Items... unless you make your own Tomes
:D
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how soon can they get to Cha 29? .....
Magic blooded venerable star elf gets +7 CHA.... with starting Cha @ 16..... remember you get - 6 to Str, Dex, and -8 to Con...
starting @ 23 means you get 29 Cha @24th lvl... since there are no Magic Items... unless you make your own Tomes
:D
Aye, but perhaps we template a wee bit to improve it? Say, half fey and phrenic to move that forward to tenth level? Only 4 LA and we still get charm at will as well as psilikes.
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Sorry to shoot down another idea, but neither Star Elf nor Magic-Blooded are within the sources, IIRC, though you're welcome to prove me wrong. Further, it was specified that age categories are abolished, since all PCs are immortal anyway. :(
Phrenic would work, though. I forget where Half-Fey is atm.
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Feind Folio
Half-Fey(living creatures who have Fey blood in them)(FF p89)(3.5up p24)+
The looks of a Half- Fey very from creature to creature.
Some are breathtakingly beautiful.
Others are hideous.
Also, some are obviously different from birth, while others seem like their base creature until later in life.
Inherited Template that can be added to any living, corporeal creature.
Becomes a ‘Fey’.
Damage Reduction 5 / cold iron
Alignment tend towards Chaotic
Dex +2
Con –2
Wis +2
Cha +4
Lvl +2
CR +1
Gains Butterfly Wings if the base creature did not already have wings. Flying speed is 2x fastest normal movement with Good maneuverability.
Gains Low-Light Vision.
Immune to Enchantment spells & effects.
Charm Person, at will.
If Cha or Wis is 8+, can use the following abilities at least 1/day.
HD Ability
1-2 Hypnotism, 1/day; Faerie Fire –or– Glitterdust,1/day
3-4 Detect Law, 3/day, Sleep –or– Enthrall, 1/day
5-6 Protection from Law, 3/day;
Tasha’s Hideous Laughter or Suggestion, 1/day
7-8 Confusion –or– Emotion, 1/day
9-10 Eyebite –or– Lesser Geas, 1/day
11-12 Dominate Person –or– Hold Monster, 1/day
13-14 Mass Invisibility, 1/day
15-16 Geas/Quest –or– Mass Suggestion, 1/day
17-18 Insanity –or– Mass Charm, 1/day
19+ Otto’s Irresistible Dance, 1/day
:D
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what really can a 12th lvl character do that this cant ? ....
start as Human Ranger 1 ... before change to Succubus(Inccubus for Male version).... that way you have +1 BAB, good skills,saves,hp
you get:
Great movement:
Greater Teleport at Will
fly 50 ft. (average)...sucks.. but costs nothing
ethereal jaunt at will
great Defenses:
+9 Natural Armor
Damage reduction 10/cold iron or good
immunity to electricity and poison
resistance to acid 10, cold 10
great Detection:
darkvision 60 ft.
Mindsight... 100' from Telepathy 100', if you take the feat
great Skills... due to High abilities
:D
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what really can a 12th lvl character do that this cant ? ....
Not die to spells, mostly.
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other alternatives if Alter reality not allowed:
BATTLESENSE
DIVINE BLAST
DIVINE EARTH MASTERY
DIVINE FIRE MASTERY
DIVINE SHIELD
GIFT OF LIFE
IRRESISTIBLE BLOWS
KNOW SECRETS
MIND OF THE BEAST
POSSESS MORTAL
POWER OF LUCK
SEE MAGIC
SUNDER AND DISJOIN
:D
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Not die to spells, mostly.
well the character will have Good Attributes, Great AC, SR.... what spells are going to be a problem .... they will be just as much a problem for any other character, actually even Moreso
:D
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with a Succubus Divine Rank 2... you get:
Immunity to the following:
transmutations
polymorphing
petrification
any attack that alters its form
energy drain
ability drain
ability damage.
mind-affecting effects.
electricity
cold
acid
disease
poison
stunning
sleep
paralysis
death effects
disintegration
Damage Reduction 10/Epic and cold iron or good
Fire Resistance 7
Spell Resistance 34
what are these Spells you speak of that will be a problem Ubernoob ?
:D
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KNOW SECRETS
Username and password, please!
Passwords for everything I need to launch a nuclear weapon, please!
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i would have picked Know Secrets first in this type of game
;)
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with a Succubus Divine Rank 2... you get:
Immunity to the following:
transmutations
polymorphing
petrification
any attack that alters its form
energy drain
ability drain
ability damage.
mind-affecting effects.
electricity
cold
acid
disease
poison
stunning
sleep
paralysis
death effects
disintegration
Damage Reduction 10/Epic and cold iron or good
Fire Resistance 7
Spell Resistance 34
what are these Spells you speak of that will be a problem Ubernoob ?
:D
Glitterdust comes to mind.
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wont be too bad... since it doesnt affect Mindsight... which she can get easily
:D
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also Glitterdust will cause even more problems for any other character... she can just Greater Teleport away... or even use ethereal jaunt before the Glitterdust
:D
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wont be too bad... since it doesnt affect Mindsight... which she can get easily
:D
Mindsight is blindsense. Doesn't stop you from being flatfooted because you are blind. Just stops you from being ambushed.
Basically, having 1HD kind of sucks. That's why I don't play level 1 games. Too easy to die. Say, 4-8 HD in an ECL game? That's pretty manageable with decent con and saves. 1HD is fucking dangerous though.
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Glitterdust is Will Negates vs Blindness.... she can easily make the save
she will have 6HD... thus 48+Con hp.... thus can handle a lot.... but they have to overcome DR and just Hit in the first place.... she will have a Great AC
she will have no problem surviving
:D
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Glitterdust is Will Negates vs Blindness.... she can easily make the save
she will have 6HD... thus 48+Con hp.... thus can handle a lot.... but they have to overcome DR and just Hit in the first place.... she will have a Great AC
she will have no problem surviving
:D
As I said. 6HD is probably playable. You seem to have stated that a LA 11 HD 1 creature was though in the quoted post.
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LoM is out as well, sadly, so no Mindsight. Woulda been kind of awesome.
carnivore gave me another idea. With [any class] 3, then race change into Succubus, I'd still get +10 to Cha by ECL 10, or +12 with Level raises. With a starting 18 or 17 in cha, the character would still qualify for Win (that is, Alter Reality), and s/he could pick up Leadership at ECL 7 (as opposed to ECL 12 with Class 2/Succubus or ECL 11 with Class 1/Succubus).
After all, wouldn't it be a waste to qualify for AR and then just not use the huge Cha? ;)
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As I said. 6HD is probably playable. You seem to have stated that a LA 11 HD 1 creature was though in the quoted post.
what? i never said anything like that
LoM is out as well, sadly, so no Mindsight. Woulda been kind of awesome.
carnivore gave me another idea. With [any class] 3, then race change into Succubus, I'd still get +10 to Cha by ECL 10, or +12 with Level raises. With a starting 18 or 17 in cha, the character would still qualify for Win (that is, Alter Reality), and s/he could pick up Leadership at ECL 7 (as opposed to ECL 12 with Class 2/Succubus or ECL 11 with Class 1/Succubus).
After all, wouldn't it be a waste to qualify for AR and then just not use the huge Cha? ;)
but i would suggest sticking with the Succubus Progression first... and then switching out to other Base Classes... like this:
Succubus 12/ Bard 7/ Sublime Chord 1 .... Pre-EPIC ....
:D
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what really can a 12th lvl character do that this cant ? ....
start as Human Ranger 1
this
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you must START as something... then as your character gets experience... you gain levels... a character that starts as a Human ranger is ECL 1, then when he starts taking levels of the Succubus racial class progression.... his ECL goes up.... by the time he finishes it, he will be ECL 13(Ranger 1/ Succubus 12) with 7 HD
sorry i didnt make it clear enough for you... hope that helps to clear up the misunderstanding you had
:D
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How would this look?
Hexblade 3 going into Succubus. HB 3 gives Cha to saves vs. Spells and Mettle. Paladin's Divine Grace is better than Arcane Resistance, but it doesn't get Mettle (And I flat out hate the CoC). With three Class Levels before Succubus I get to pick up Leadership at 7th and qualify for Alter Reality at 10th. Abilities could look something like this, at level 1: Str 8 (10?), Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12 (10?), Wis 8, Cha 18. Str is prolly less important than Dex in a modern setting, since the most effective weapons around are firearms, which don't need Str.
Viable, or mad ravings?
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The low HD really scares me.
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The low HD really scares me.
If she has 7 HD by ECL 9 she can beat the instant death from Cloudkill. Hit point wise she's okay since 6/7 of her first ECL have HD and at ECL 10 she'll instantly have +5 Con(well, +5 everything) from Alter Reality.
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Can you delay entry / progression?
Not that it makes much difference if you go Hexblade 1 / Succubus whatever / Hexblade +2
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Can you delay entry / progression?
Not that it makes much difference if you go Hexblade 1 / Succubus whatever / Hexblade +2
Actually, it does, because once I go Succubus, I have to stick with it all the way IIRC.
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you definately want to go Succubus 12 first.... and use these stats:
10 Str(8 +2 Racial)
20 Dex(18 +2 Racial)
16 Con(14 +2 Racial)
18 Int(12 +6 Racial)
12 Wis(8 +4 Racial)
30 Cha(14 +16 Racial)
all level boosts go to Dex
thus @ 20th , it looks like this:
10 Str(8 +2 Racial)
25 Dex(18 +2 Racial +5 levels)
16 Con(14 +2 Racial)
18 Int(12 +6 Racial)
12 Wis(8 +4 Racial)
30 Cha(14 +16 Racial)
but with Inherent bonuses from Alter Reality ... it looks like this:
15 Str(8 +2 Racial +5 Inherent)
30 Dex(18 +2 Racial +5 levels +5 Inherent)
21 Con(14 +2 Racial +5 Inherent)
23 Int(12 +6 Racial +5 Inherent)
17 Wis(8 +4 Racial +5 Inherent)
35 Cha(14 +16 Racial +5 Inherent)
thus you now qualify for:
DIVINE CELERITY
DIVINE DODGE
FREE MOVE
INSTANT MOVE
SUPREME INITIATIVE
with Weapon Finnesse ... you will be great at Combat(melee or ranged)... and Weapon Focus(Claws), Imp Crit(Claws)... you can take IRRESISTIBLE BLOWS
you will get these abilities far before anyone else
:D
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With a starting 14 in Cha I won't qualify for Alter Reality by 10th, though. Even if I go Succubus straight away, I get +12 Cha by Succubus 9, which amounts to 26 with Cha 14 before Racials, or 28 if I put both stat increases in it. With a 16 starting Charisma, it would work with just one level increase in Cha. With a starting 18, it would work out without any stat increases at all, but that pretty much bars Dex 18 as well.
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Alter Reality is plain good though. It really is. That should be your primary focus if you're going to sink the LA.
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Alter Reality is plain good though. It really is. That should be your primary focus if you're going to sink the LA.
Exactly. So, my current idea is:
1. Hexblade 3 into Succubus
Starting Stats (At level 10/15, not couting Alter Reality):
Str 8 or 9 (8 or 9/10 or 11)
Dex 14 or 15 (16 or 17/16 or 17 or 18)
Con 14 (16/16)
Int 12 (16/18)
Wis 8 (10/10)
Cha 18 or 17 (30 or 29/35 or 34)
Feats: Personal Firearms Proficiency (Bonus), ?? (Human Bonus), ??
Lots of equipment
Gets Leadership at 7th and Mettle at 3rd.
2. Hexblade 1/Succubus 12/Hexblade +2
Starting Stats (At level 10/15, not couting Alter Reality):
Str 8 or 9 (8/10)
Dex 16 or 15 (19 or 17/20 or 18)
Con 14 (16/16)
Int 14 or 13 (18 or 17/20 or 19)
Wis 8 (10/10)
Cha 16 or 17 (29/33)
Feats: Personal Firearms Proficiency (Bonus), ?? (Human Bonus), ??
Lots of equipment
Gets Leadership at 11th and Mettle at 15th.
More things that beget thinking about are choice of domains and signature item (see here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=17344242&postcount=57)). For domains, I was thinking along the lines of Fate, Luck, and Magic, but these are by no means set in stone. As for the signature item... no idea. I'm looking at either a laptop with utility enchantments or a Barret Light Fifty (which I'll use as a weapon when things don't go my way).
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For your character, I'd consider the following domains ... you're not a primary caster so you want to focus on things that provide better benefits. You will get some of the domain abilities as SLAs ... but I'd pick from the following:
* Competition ... +1 to opposed checks, decent enough spells for SLAs ... the divine rules say you get the power 1/day per divine rank unless a cleric would get it more ... and this should mean it works for EVERY check since clerics get it unlimited
* Mysticism ... 1/day (or 1/day per divine rank) get CHA as a bonus to saves for 1/round per cleric level (divine rank) ... greater visage of the deity is an untyped increase to your attributes (lesser is enhancement)
* Time ... improved init and some great SLAs (time stop, permanency, contingency)
* Luck ... 1 reroll/divine rank = good
* Charm ... untyped +4 CHA 1/day/divine rank
* Family ... give CHA creatures a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round/divine rank (can include yourself) ... 1/day/divine rank
* Renewal ... 1/day/divine rank when dropped to between 0 and -10 you heal back to 1d8+CHA positive hit points
Others to consider
* Domination - fits the flavor
* Mind - some skill bonuses
* Pride - rerolling 1s is always fun ...
Pride can be fun when combined with Luck ... if so, definitely consider Fortune's Friend PrC ... (advance Hexblade if you have to) ... if you do go that route, I'd really recommend skill focus (k-religion) and divine oracle (again, advance Hexblade if you have to) to get Prescient Sense (evasion in armor), Uncanny Dodge, Improved Uncanny Dodge, etc.
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The thing about Pride is that, starting at Divine Rank 1, You don't auto-fail on a 1 anyway. Fate gives Uncanny Dodge, which is swell. Luck has rerolls, which are nice. Mysticism sounds nice, but I dunno how it would fit the character. Charm and/or Mind might work tho.
I'm now actually thinking of going Suel Arcanamach after Succubus to get 3rd level spells, and then Sublime Chord. >_>
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I get what you're saying on Pride ... I was thinking of it more in the "reroll a really crappy roll" sense.
If the DC is 30, you have +20 to your save, you fail on a 1-9. If you can reroll the 1, you're in a happier place.
You don't auto-fail, I was just thinking that 1 is still a pretty low dang roll.
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If you go Fate, it should be always on. Suel -> Sublime is good ... I'd still suggest you follow into Divine Oracle if you can for 4 levels to get another uncanny (which goes to improved) and prescient sense.
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I get what you're saying on Pride ... I was thinking of it more in the "reroll a really crappy roll" sense.
If the DC is 30, you have +20 to your save, you fail on a 1-9. If you can reroll the 1, you're in a happier place.
You don't auto-fail, I was just thinking that 1 is still a pretty low dang roll.
Good point.
If you go Fate, it should be always on. Suel -> Sublime is good ... I'd still suggest you follow into Divine Oracle if you can for 4 levels to get another uncanny (which goes to improved) and prescient sense.
Yar, continuing Sublime Chord with something else is probably the best option. Divine Oracle also gives Evasion, IIRC, doesn't it?
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...Fiend of Possession?
-
...Fiend of Possession?
Sounds good, except it's in the FF, isn't it?
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Prescient Sense (Divine Oracle 2) is evasion but it works in armor. Uncanny (which would be improved since you already have Uncanny from the Fate domain) comes at 4th. If you don't take the fate domain, stick in Divine Oracle for 6 levels (it gets improved then). Level 10 makes you immune to surprise, if you want to go the whole way.
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By the way, if you don't want to go Suel / Sublime Chord, consider Divine Crusader.
One thing I'd consider if Alter Reality is nerfed would be to cram Hexblade / Whatever in front of Divine Crusader, then advance with Divine Oracle and Fortune's Friend. Your CL will be ... less than stellar ... but you can snag 9th level spells and set up for Epic Spellcasting.
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With a starting 14 in Cha I won't qualify for Alter Reality by 10th, though. Even if I go Succubus straight away, I get +12 Cha by Succubus 9, which amounts to 26 with Cha 14 before Racials, or 28 if I put both stat increases in it. With a 16 starting Charisma, it would work with just one level increase in Cha. With a starting 18, it would work out without any stat increases at all, but that pretty much bars Dex 18 as well.
ok ....try this... still go for the Succubus first, but use these stats
10 Str(8 +2 Racial)
18 Dex(16 +2 Racial)
16 Con(14 +2 Racial)
20 Int(14 +6 Racial)
12 Wis(8 +4 Racial)
32 Cha(16 +16 Racial)
all level boosts go to: 1 Cha, the other 4 to Dex
the Key is to get the best Salient Abilities first..... from what i can see use this order:
1st: Divine Fire Mastery..... Immunity to Fire, and The deity has complete control over all nonmagical fire and can duplicate the effect of any spell with the fire descriptor as a standard action.
thus you can cast Meteor Swarm @ 5th lvl :smirk
2nd: Alter Reality ... or if not allowed, Divine Earth Mastery for versatility, Divine Blast for a Combat oriented character
:D
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The X Masteries are indeed pretty nice, though they all require their respecitve element domain, read: Crappy granted power, mediocre spells. =/
Alternatively, Control Creatures seems like a pretty good option to pick up at 5th, as does Know Secrets.
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with this type of campaign .... normal optimization rules dont necessarily apply
with Salient Abilities ..... they give benifits that will override the minor costs ... dont worry about the Domains , since you can always choose Extra Domain if you really want
:D
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You know what the difference between a Succubus and an Incubus is?
[spoiler]A standard action.[/spoiler]
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heres how i would do it:
Succubus 12/ Bard 7/ Sublime Chord 2/ Divine Crusader 2/ Mystic Theurge 7...... at 30th lvl
@20th lvl
10 Str(8 +2 Racial)
22 Dex(16 +2 Racial +4 lvls)
16 Con(14 +2 Racial)
20 Int(14 +6 Racial)
12 Wis(8 +4 Racial)
33 Cha(16 +16 Racial+1 lvl)
@30th lvl
10 Str(8 +2 Racial)
24 Dex(16 +2 Racial +6 lvls)
16 Con(14 +2 Racial)
20 Int(14 +6 Racial)
12 Wis(8 +4 Racial)
33 Cha(16 +16 Racial+1 lvl)
if you are able to have Alter Reality Salient Ability... then the Salient Ability Progression is like this(after gaining +5 inherent to All attributes):
[spoiler]
15 Str(8 +2 Racial +5 inherent)
29 Dex(16 +2 Racial +6 lvls +5 inherent)
21 Con(14 +2 Racial +5 inherent)
25 Int(14 +6 Racial +5 inherent)
17 Wis(8 +4 Racial +5 inherent)
38 Cha(16 +16 Racial+1 lvl +5 inherent)[/spoiler]
5th lvl: Divine Fire Mastery
10th lvl: Alter Reality
15th lvl: Know Secrets
20th lvl: Supreme Initiative
25th lvl: Irresistable Blows
30th lvl: Divine Dodge
focus on Cha and Dex
:D
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The X Masteries are indeed pretty nice, though they all require their respecitve element domain, read: Crappy granted power, mediocre spells. =/
Alternatively, Control Creatures seems like a pretty good option to pick up at 5th, as does Know Secrets.
Extra fuel for DMM is crappy? Since when?
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The X Masteries are indeed pretty nice, though they all require their respecitve element domain, read: Crappy granted power, mediocre spells. =/
Alternatively, Control Creatures seems like a pretty good option to pick up at 5th, as does Know Secrets.
Extra fuel for DMM is crappy? Since when?
The extra fuel for DMM bit is very DM dependant, sadly, and apart from that aspect, it's just too niche for me to like it. Secondly, in this game you don't even need DMM, since you can just grab Automatic MM. In this games, that's three strikes against it. In others, it's two. Now, if the DM allowed Turn Elemental to work for DMM, I'd definitely consider them.