Brilliant Gameologists Forum
The Thinktank => Min/Max It! => : Endarire October 31, 2010, 05:25:29 AM
-
Part of what makes T1s T1 is their tremendous versatility. Granting a Warblade every Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw, and White Raven maneuver and stance for which he qualifies hardly seems unbalancing. The amount of readied maneuvers would be the same, and he'd still need to refresh maneuvers as normal.
The same goes for Crusaders, Swordsages, and initiator PrCs with their respective disciplines.
Multiclass martial adepts would know all maneuvers from each of their classes, but could only ready each maneuver once. A Crusader/Swordsage could only ready Stone Bones as either a Crusader or a Swordsage maneuver.
Doing this doesn't seem unbalancing compared to how casters rule the world. It also reduces prereq-related problems.
Adaptive Style becomes more potent, but its full-round action is still prohibitive in most situations.
CLARIFICATION: Martial Stance, Martial Study, and maneuver-granting items still function as normal. Crusaders still have their randomized granted maneuvers, but can only put so many cards in the rotation at a time, like as normal.
-
Martial Adepts still wouldn't be Tier 2. They'd be high Tier 3, which is nice.
Almost ALL of the stress and tedium in making a martial adept is gone. Prerequisites are gone (and so are making sure new maneuvers fulfill their own prerequisites when replacing old maneuvers... BLEGH). And there's the obvious win-win of just knowing every maneuver.
Decision paralysis would happen instead every time one readies their maneuvers. This is a good problem to have if the players have plans and good decision making.
Same-class martial adepts very similar. But let's be honest; There are really only three or so types of Warblades when focussing on maneuvers. And maybe two types of Crusaders. Maybe four types of Swordsages. So this isn't actually a big change.
-
Non-buff, since you can easily learn all the maneuvers you'd WANT to use regardless of this change. Depending on how you implement the rate at which the ToB classes learn maneuvers, they either become insanely dip-friendly, meaning that the classes themselves play less of a role, or they become substantially less useful dips, meaning that non-initiators are almost certainly not going to pick up any ToB levels (instead maybe just a magic item or two to cover the maneuvers they really want).
-
I imagine it would change a thing or two.
If you restrict it to "Warblade/Crusader/Swordsage (+ ToB PrCs) 20" it will probably mean that all the other "straight melees" go down in comparism, maybe not too much. If you don't restrict it at all, it will make short dips absolutely mandatory.
Additionally, I'd say its a big difference between "knowing all your maneuvers", which arguably won't do that much, and "knowing all your stances" which will get you some nice flexibility. That being said, I like the idea. Might be a way to allow them in a T1-T2 game.
-
Knowing all the stances is a big boost, but no. Initiators are solidly T3. I mean, they can't even turn into giant, regenerating multi-headed snake things that breathe fire.
-
There's little out of combat utility to maneuvers, unlike spells. So knowing them isn't nearly as advantageous as a caster with a large pool of spells know.
Yeah, decision paralysis will kick in. Happens to my divine spellcaster players all too often.
I think my players would appreciate the additional prerequisites removed, besides level. Unfortunately that opens up a can of worms for taking Martial Study and building Martial items. Not because of the actual Martial classes, but probably due to spellcasters abusing it.
-
CLARIFICATION: Martial Stance, Martial Study, and maneuver-granting items still function as normal. Crusaders still have their randomized granted maneuvers, but can only put so many cards in the rotation at a time, like as normal.
-
CLARIFICATION: Martial Stance, Martial Study, and maneuver-granting items still function as normal. Crusaders still have their randomized granted maneuvers, but can only put so many cards in the rotation at a time, like as normal.
Without pre-requisites, though, people with Martial Study can cherry-pick some good stuff, and this is assuming that dipping isn't ridiculously beneficial.
-
CLARIFICATION: Martial Stance, Martial Study, and maneuver-granting items still function as normal. Crusaders still have their randomized granted maneuvers, but can only put so many cards in the rotation at a time, like as normal.
Without pre-requisites, though, people with Martial Study can cherry-pick some good stuff, and this is assuming that dipping isn't ridiculously beneficial.
Solution: That only happens for people who have more levels in their maneuver-granting classes than in other classes. So Wizard 19/Swordsage 1 still has to pick his maneuvers, but Swordsage 11/Psychic Warrior 9 doesn't. Not sure what you'd do about a Swordsage 7/Warblade 7/Crusader 6, though.
-
What happens if I go Rogue2/Swordsage2/Rogue+2/Swordsage+1? Do I lose access to anything? What do I get at Swordsage3?
-
What happens if I go Rogue2/Swordsage2/Rogue+2/Swordsage+1? Do I lose access to anything? What do I get at Swordsage3?
Well, for one, you wouldn't ever have access to all the maneuvers, since you never have more Swordsage levels than Rogue levels. But I'm honestly okay with letting you keep your access to all the maneuvers you were able to access at that point. That's never going to go beyond 5th level maneuvers.
So a Rogue 1/SS 2/Rog+2/SS+2 would have, in order: No maneuvers, maneuvers known as a SS 1, all 1st level maneuvers known, no change for two levels, pick up 2nd level manuevers as normal (but keep all your first-level maneuvers), then access to all 2nd and 3rd level maneuvers.
-
I don't see a problem with the items: Just don't remove prereqs. As long as you're an initiator of sufficiently high level, you know all maneuvers, and hence meet all the prereqs. However, if you never take a level in an initiator class, you don't know them. An item always contains all the maneuvers of a certain school up to a certain level, but you can't use it unless you meet the prereqs. Now this is also simple:
As with learning maneuvers now, you can also only learn new levels of maneuvers when taking a level in an initiator class - and then only the maneuvers for that class.
So, say, a Fighter2/Warblade 2/ Barb1/X1/Chaosmonk2/Warblade+1 gets all first level maneuvers at level 3, all second level maneuvers at level 4, then stays there for three levels until gaining third level maneuvers at 9, and 4th at 10.
A Warblade 1/Sorc10 only knows all first level maneuvers. If that doesn't contain enough maneuvers to meet prereqs for maneuvers from higher level items, then they don't work. Now a Sorc10/Warblade1 knows all third level maneuvers, hence making it possible to gain most maneuvers via item, later.
The late dip is hence even more useful. However, it's like dropping prices on gadgets: You know it will always get cheaper, but you also want to have it. So you just have to find the right time. The only time this becomes difficult is during high-level-starting campaigns, because there you can build ready to that level. During a progression campaign you'll just have to take your initiator levels when you need them, or when it fits your plan.
-
Almost ALL of the stress and tedium in making a martial adept is gone. Prerequisites are gone (and so are making sure new maneuvers fulfill their own prerequisites when replacing old maneuvers... BLEGH). And there's the obvious win-win of just knowing every maneuver.
Decision paralysis would happen instead every time one readies their maneuvers. This is a good problem to have if the players have plans and good decision making.
This was my thought exactly. You could make PCs faster, but you'd have a lot to think about between each fight (potentially).
-
This setup will really reward multiclassed martial adepts who multiclass/prc into other martial adept classes.
If you are mainly a warblade, or a crusader, or a swordsage and you multiclass into 1 level each of the other two initiators you delay your advancement of your main class by 1 (.5 for Class 2 and .5 for Class 3), in return you gain all the maneuvers known of that class for whatever level you made that dip. Being 1 class level behind is not much of a loss.
Level 6
A warblade 4/crusader 1/swordsage 1 would know all 2nd level warblade, 2nd level crusader, and 2nd level swordsage maneuvers at level 6.
vs
A pure warblade would know all 3rd level warblade maneuvers.
Level 7
A warblade 4/crusader 1/swordsage 1/warblade 1 would know all 3rd level warblade, 2nd level crusader, and 2nd level swordsage maneuvers at level 7.
A pure warblade would know all 4th level warblade maneuvers.
Level 8
A warblade 4/crusader 1/swordsage 1/warblade 2 would know all 4th level warblade, 2nd level crusader, and 2nd level swordsage maneuvers at level 7.
A pure warblade would know all 4th level warblade maneuvers.
etc
Furthermore the multiclass warblade has 5 more crusader maneuvers readied and 4 more swordsage maneuvers readied vs a normal warblade (a warblade gains a new maneuver readied approximately every 5 levels so the normal warblade is much behind in the normal prepared maneuvers).
------------------------------------
PRCs that advance IL further exacerbate the situation. While any of the Initiator PRCS many only grant new maneuvers known of 1 or 2 disciplines during its 5 or 10 levels, the Initiator PRCS does fully grant IL of all your schools disciplines. Thus you will want to take these prcs levels as early possible and then "stack a late dip" onto the very end.
Compare a Warblade 5/Bloodstorm Blade 4/Crusader 1/Swordsage 1/Warblade 1
4th level Cruasder maneuvers known
4th level Swordsage maneuvers known
6th level Warblade maneuvers known
vs
Warblade 12
6th level Warblade maneuvers known
------------------------------------
Assuming you can adapt RKV to any diety if you don't play in greyhawk. Assuming you can swing a shadow and a time domain (cleric who worships the void aka everything dies)
Cloistered Cleric 1/Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Warblade 1/Crusader 1/Unarmed Swordsage Swordsage 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/Master of Nine 5
Adaptive Style Feat
Dodge Feat
Cleric-Shadow Domain-Blind Fight
Cleric-Time Domain-Improved Initiative
Unarmed Swordsage-Improved Unarmed Strike
.5+1+1+1+.75+10+3.25=18 BAB (using partials)
IL of 18 in all 3 classes
Pounce
9th level Cleric Casting