Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin

[JaronK]

By the way, a properly optimised dragon could take that feat as well

Then you could be entering a lair full of random guys who it has crushed in the past.

Not many CR 12 Dragons with 4th level spells, though.  Unless by "properly optimized dragon" you meant a Dragonwrought Loredrake Venerable Kobold Sorcerer, who could indeed take that feat.  If that's the CR 12 dragon we're going against, my Adept's strategy is going to change to walking up to the edge of the lair and politely asking if he might join forces in return for keeping his miserable life.

JaronK

[Bauglir]

A Loredrake Brass could do it, but that's sufficiently rare that your statement about "not many" still stands.

[zugschef]

Well, this certainly is an interesting turn of events.

Infected, I find you way of denoting the real Giacomo quite amusing. I assume you noticed the difference in posting style, such as "Giacomo" being very rude and offensive?

Then again, we have a much less stringent code of conduct here, so it's possible that Roland St. Jude was the only think keeping Giacomo ver. GitP polite, and that he was always a raging douche-fag at heart.

to add to this "debate" wether it's the real giacomo or not, you mentioned that the real giacomo was german. well, there is evidence which would support that this board's giacomo is from a german speaking country:

@zugchef - you are correct, the miss chance of total concealment (from dark moon disciple or invisibility ACFs) and blink combined are 60%, not 75% (since part of the blink miss chance is concealment).

i'm currently member on some english speaking and some german speaking boards, and leaving the "s" in "zugschef" is a typical reaction by a lot of german speaking posters who feel themselves compelled to correct an alleged mistake in my username (which of course can happen unintentionally, as it can happen when you quote something with a spelling mistake). ;-)

[Tshern]

I almost spat my coffee on my laptop when I read Necrotic empowerment.

[weenog]

I almost spat my coffee on my laptop when I read Necrotic empowerment.

No kidding.  If you're a divine caster it might be worth the feat just to DMM persist it daily and never cast any other cyst spells, ever.

[Tshern]

I almost spat my coffee on my laptop when I read Necrotic empowerment.

No kidding.  If you're a divine caster it might be worth the feat just to DMM persist it daily and never cast any other cyst spells, ever.

Indeed. The bonuses to stats alone are excellent, but for a melee guy the temporary hitpoints are a great frosting on the cake. On another note, I called a friend who has the book and he checked, they are tagged as Cleric spells (Wizard too), so a Cleric could emulate it with Miracle...

[Sir Giacomo]

Your friend is correct, Tshern. The cyst spells are on the cleric and wizard/sorcerer spell lists and thus not available for the adept.

- Giacomo

[snakeman830]

The Mother Cyst feat (which allows you to cast them at all) specifically adds them to your spells known, so yes, they are available to the Adept.

The fact they're tagged with Sorc/Wizard and Cleric means that they can be emulated easily with Wish/Miracle.

[Tshern]

Your friend is correct, Tshern. The cyst spells are on the cleric and wizard/sorcerer spell lists and thus not available for the adept.

- Giacomo

The description of the feat was just posted here and as snakeman830 just said, they are added to your list. If they are on your list, you can cast them.

[X-Codes]

Your friend is correct, Tshern. The cyst spells are on the cleric and wizard/sorcerer spell lists and thus not available for the adept.

- Giacomo

There's that homebrewed spell compelling me to place the palm of my hand upon my face again.

[Infected]

Your friend is correct, Tshern. The cyst spells are on the cleric and wizard/sorcerer spell lists and thus not available for the adept.

- Giacomo

There's that homebrewed spell compelling me to place the palm of my hand upon my face again.

There's also a homebrewed spell that's compelling him to outright ignore parts of/complete posts.

[Kajhera]

Your friend is correct, Tshern. The cyst spells are on the cleric and wizard/sorcerer spell lists and thus not available for the adept.

- Giacomo

There's that homebrewed spell compelling me to place the palm of my hand upon my face again.

There's also a homebrewed spell that's compelling him to outright ignore parts of/complete posts.

To be fair, I ignore most of his, because they're long and detailed and I'm just not invested enough in this argument to bother. Page 45 passed quickly enough he could've missed it entirely.

[Sir Giacomo]

Hm. This is odd. The BovD has a separate list for the corrupt spells to illustrate that they can be taken by all spellcasters. Meanwhile, the LM lists the cyst spells only as cleric and wizard/sorcerer spells (assasins, for instance, do not have it on their list). The feat is a necaessary prereq for clerics and wizard/sorcerers to cast them, that is all.
Well, whatever, can certainly be ruled adept-friendly.

However, I kindly ask you all to cool down here. Mistakes and misinterpretations have been made on both sides of the argument in this thread.

Thank you

- Giacomo

[Kajhera]

I don't know why it bothers to list them as sorcerer/wizard and cleric spells, since the norm is you can't cast them at all, and the feat lets you cast them if you're a caster of any sort.

You could even take it as a warlock, but you wouldn't actually gain any benefit from it. That's odd.

[Shiki]

WotC simply failed at writing those spells out; like, not marking 'em as "cleric x, sorcerer/wizard x", but Necrotic Cyst/Necrotic spells or something. For exemple, take a look at the article about the Far Realm from Dr#330; there's the Cerebrosis feat that grants you access to Cerebrotic/Cerebrant spells. Mother Cyst works in the same way, though the line "cleric x, sorcerer/wizard x" is confusing things for absolutely nothing.

[TenaciousJ]

Hm. This is odd. The BovD has a separate list for the corrupt spells to illustrate that they can be taken by all spellcasters. Meanwhile, the LM lists the cyst spells only as cleric and wizard/sorcerer spells (assasins, for instance, do not have it on their list). The feat is a necaessary prereq for clerics and wizard/sorcerers to cast them, that is all.
Well, whatever, can certainly be ruled adept-friendly.

However, I kindly ask you all to cool down here. Mistakes and misinterpretations have been made on both sides of the argument in this thread.

Thank you

- Giacomo

Adepts, assassins, bards, etc. can meet the prerequisites of the Mother Cyst feat.  The Mother Cyst feat specifically states the spells are added to your class list.  Specific overrides general, right?

[Sir Giacomo]

Adepts, assassins, bards, etc. can meet the prerequisites of the Mother Cyst feat.  The Mother Cyst feat specifically states the spells are added to your class list.  Specific overrides general, right?

In this case it appears to be specific vs specific  (or even the specific part being the individual spells being categorised to belong to the cleric or wizard/sorcerer spell lists only, while the general thing seems to be that the feat applies to casters - pls check spell lists as to which exactly). But heck, I can understand DMs ruling it such for their adepts (them being an npc class after all). So it should be open for pc adepts as well.

Out of curiosity at this point: is there any way to do an equally powerful good or neutral aligned adept?

- Giacomo

[Lycanthromancer]

Hellbred?

[JaronK]

Good Adepts have access to all the Sanctified spells, which adds quite a lot.  Mother Cyst doesn't actually have any alignment restrictions, nor do Adepts have Cleric like restrictions about alignment casting, so a good or neutral Adept can do everything mentioned here if they want (they'd just have to use their undead entirely for good, only dominate evil people in service to good, etc).  And before you say it's impossible to have a good aligned caster using undead, I recommend you read the Bone Knight PrC, which is designed primarily for Lawful Good necromantic types (it's a Cleric or Paladin PrC).

JaronK

[PhaedrusXY]

The feat specifically says they're added to your class list, right? So it actually isn't even contradicting the fact that they're already listed on the cleric/wizard class lists... They're on the wiz/clr/sorc class lists even without the feat, but those classes can't cast them without the feat. They're not on anyone else's lists without the feat. However, anyone who takes the feat adds them to their class spell list, and can cast them. There is no contradiction anywhere. It's a bit strange, but not contradictory.

Good Adepts have access to all the Sanctified spells, which adds quite a lot. 

I thought non-evil casters could cast those? I'm pretty sure the book specifically says that non-evil clerics can spontaneously cast Sanctified spells, as strange as that might sound...