Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin

[Shinzen]

But isn't that exactly what he's been asking for? An identical situation with no tricks on either side?

There would be no wriggle room there. No buts. No arguing semantics.

[Lunaramblings]

We could probably solve this by having a neutral third party DM a fight between said CR 12 white dragon, a pre-made identical party to assist, and Giacomo playing his Monk with JaronK playing his Adept. Or even just a straight up 1 on 1 vs the dragon or another monster fight. Or both, as it seems each side is arguing independently here...

In the interests of peace and neutrality, I'd volunteer to do the DMing. If we are assuming an optimized character however we should also assume the DM is optimizing his dragons by selecting better feats or spells (as I often do with some low-powered monsters, seriously Wizards, what's with the hard-on for Toughness and Alertness?).

Both myself and JaronK have provided builds and breakdowns. I see nothing from Giacomo. Giacomo did say that someone should correct me though, so if someone would please enlighten me as to what I missed? That would be great.

[Solo]

He might not, but I'd be happy to.

[Sir Giacomo]

Shinzen, your suggestion to DM is very friendly.
As a DM, though, looking at the builds that Lunaramblings and JaronK have provided - do you see any problem here (ruleswise, tactics, expectations of the dragon's tactics)?

I know what I would say as a DM, if my players would show them to me, but I am interested in what would you think.

To provide a bit of background, Shinzen: I have tried playtesting for monks, duels, special challenge tests. Many, many times I tried. Some of those who accuse me now being a troll have actually already participated in those tests or followed them closely. All to no avail - even though in my view I clearly showed the merits of the monk, I was unable to convince most of the monk sceptics. So I am hesitant that a playtest which involves a lot of effort from all sides is going be worthwhile.

I'll wait for your answer and then I'll post my concerns on the two adept builds. Maybe some will see similar problems.

- Giacomo

[Solo]

To my knowledge, the monk's special abilities include dying more than anyone else in the party.

[ImperatorK]

Concerning those mistakes you're gonna point out, I don't see any. You're just making excuses.

[Shinzen]

Shinzen, your suggestion to DM is very friendly.
As a DM, though, looking at the builds that Lunaramblings and JaronK have provided - do you see any problem here (ruleswise, tactics, expectations of the dragon's tactics)?

I know what I would say as a DM, if my players would show them to me, but I am interested in what would you think.

To provide a bit of background, Shinzen: I have tried playtesting for monks, duels, special challenge tests. Many, many times I tried. Some of those who accuse me now being a troll have actually already participated in those tests or followed them closely. All to no avail - even though in my view I clearly showed the merits of the monk, I was unable to convince most of the monk sceptics. So I am hesitant that a playtest which involves a lot of effort from all sides is going be worthwhile.

I'll wait for your answer and then I'll post my concerns on the two adept builds. Maybe some will see similar problems.

- Giacomo

Well first off, I'd like to know which builds specifically you are referring to, that is which two builds would be included in this challenge, his and yours. There are 26 pages of this thread and several builds, so if you could link to the ones you think best suited to this competition it would be a great help.

And as a DM I tend to rule on RAW except in situations where they completely break down (infinite loops, Candle of Invocation, etc). As an optimizer, I try to rule as I would expect my DM to rule in a game I was playing: allowing interesting builds while disallowing objectively broken ones. For example, I have no problem with the (I'm not sure if it was this or the other thread) build of a monk which uses a necklace of natural attacks to throw himself at his opponent. I think that's actually quite ingenious, and I always apply a special cantrip to all players called "Flavor Text: Your attacks and abilities can look like whatever the crap you want as long as the mechanics are sound."

I also have no problem with custom magic items, except when used in an obviously unintended manner (True Strike Continuous for 2000gp), but in terms of slots, if you want to combine two items into one slot, I'd rule you would use a cost of 1.5(A+B) where A and B are the costs of the items you are combining. If it's three effects 2.0(A+b+c) and so on. This of course excludes standard bonuses as show in MiC.

I feel this would be a common example of a realistic situation which you could expect to see from an average DM that would allow the kind of optimization we all know and love.

Of course, I also tend to balance things the other way. If the players are beating the crap out of all the encounters, they are going to catch the attention of someone who is going to make future encounters more difficult. And I will optimize NPCs to counter player optimization and keep the game interesting. This will be shown here by me reselecting feats and spells for the CR 12 Dragon opponent in this situation, or whichever other opponent happens to be selected by consensus.

I would actually suggest three or more situations with identical parties to examine social, combat, and utility aspects of the characters to judge their relative power. I think what we are after here is a D&D version of the "Bare Difference Argument", that is, a situation which is identical in all aspects except for the one thing we are trying to compare.

[JaronK]

I also have no problem with custom magic items, except when used in an obviously unintended manner (True Strike Continuous for 2000gp), but in terms of slots, if you want to combine two items into one slot, I'd rule you would use a cost of 1.5(A+B) where A and B are the costs of the items you are combining. If it's three effects 2.0(A+b+c) and so on. This of course excludes standard bonuses as show in MiC.

IIRC, the MiC rules are that the base item costs normal price, as does adding in a "standard boost."  Then all additional features cost 50% above normal, so a Circlet of Intelligence that was also a Circlet of Command and a Hat of Disguise and an Admiral's Bicorn would cost the normal price of an Admiral's Bicorn, plus the normal cost of a Circlet of Intelligence (since that's a standard bonus), + 1.5 * the cost of a Hat of Disguise, +1.5 * the cost of a Circlet of Command.

And seriously, can anyone else point out mistakes in my Adept?  I mean, I figured I was making a really basic Adept, with nothing objectionable about it.  Snakeman pointed out I can't Maximize and Enlarge in the same shot, but that's hardly a big deal.

JaronK

[Shinzen]

I also have no problem with custom magic items, except when used in an obviously unintended manner (True Strike Continuous for 2000gp), but in terms of slots, if you want to combine two items into one slot, I'd rule you would use a cost of 1.5(A+B) where A and B are the costs of the items you are combining. If it's three effects 2.0(A+b+c) and so on. This of course excludes standard bonuses as show in MiC.

IIRC, the MiC rules are that the base item costs normal price, as does adding in a "standard boost."  Then all additional features cost 50% above normal, so a Circlet of Intelligence that was also a Circlet of Command and a Hat of Disguise and an Admiral's Bicorn would cost the normal price of an Admiral's Bicorn, plus the normal cost of a Circlet of Intelligence (since that's a standard bonus), + 1.5 * the cost of a Hat of Disguise, +1.5 * the cost of a Circlet of Command.

And seriously, can anyone else point out mistakes in my Adept?  I mean, I figured I was making a really basic Adept, with nothing objectionable about it.  Snakeman pointed out I can't Maximize and Enlarge in the same shot, but that's hardly a big deal.

JaronK

Yeah I think you're right upon further review.

Which adept build specifically are you referring to? What page? I'll take a look at if if you link it.

[Lycanthromancer]

JaronK, if you wanted to add both metamagic rod abilities onto a single rod, you could use both on a single spell if you wanted to. After all, it's two feats, but still only one rod, which segues neatly with the rod's rules text.

It just costs a small amount more.

[Shinzen]

JaronK, if you wanted to add both metamagic rod abilities onto a single rod, you could use both on a single spell if you wanted to. After all, it's two feats, but still only one rod, which segues neatly with the rod's rules text.

It just costs a small amount more.

Seems fine, but if I was DMing I'd likely make you put the 1.5x cost on the more expensive rod. But it does specifically say it can stack with feats you already have, so it's still in the spirit of the rules as well.

[Lycanthromancer]

Seems fine, but if I was DMing I'd likely make you put the 1.5x cost on the more expensive rod.

Them's houserules, though, since the MIC explicitly states that you add 1.5x the cost of the less expensive one.

[Shinzen]

Seems fine, but if I was DMing I'd likely make you put the 1.5x cost on the more expensive rod.

Them's houserules, though, since the MIC explicitly states that you add 1.5x the cost of the less expensive one.

Does it? Huh. I'm AFB atm.

Ok, cool. My mistake.

[JaronK]

JaronK, if you wanted to add both metamagic rod abilities onto a single rod, you could use both on a single spell if you wanted to. After all, it's two feats, but still only one rod, which segues neatly with the rod's rules text.

It just costs a small amount more.

Nah, honestly it was such a quick and dirty build that I threw together a few things that seemed useful.  If I was really going to get into it, I'd have gotten more useful gear.

@Shiz: It's in the page before this one, I think.  CR 12 Adept with an Imp familiar.  Designed to craft items for a party, have his familiar handle most social stuff, build things, and be a minion master.  Here, I'll put him up there again (note that he shouldn't be combining the rod effects into a single casting):

[spoiler]Herbert the Somewhat Special (25 Point Buy)
Lawful Neutral Human Adept 12 (68hp)
BAB 6, Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +14
Str 9, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 23, Cha 8
Feats:  Alertness, Corpse Crafter, Craft Wondrous Items, Improved Familiar, Mother Cyst,  Nimble Bones
Skills:  Craft Armorsmithing +10, Concentration +15, Handle Animal +10, Knowledge (The Religion) +10

Minions:

Familiar:  Imp
Tiny Outsider, 12 HD, 34hp, Init +3, Spd 20 Fly 50 (perfect), AC 26 (Touch 15, Flat Foot 23), BAB +6, Grapple -5, Attack +11 Melee (1d4 + Poison, Sting), Darkvision 60, Deliver Touch Speels, DR 5/good or silver, Fast Healing 2, Immunity to Poison, Improved Evasion, Resistance to Fire 5, Speak with Master, For +4, Ref +7, Will +7, Str 10, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 11, Wis 12, Cha 14, Diplomacy +8, Hide +17, Knowledge The Planes +6, Listen +7, Move Silently +9, Search +6, Spellcraft +6, Spot +7, Survival +1, Dodge, Weapon Finesse, Poison (DC 16, 1d4 Dex, 2d4 Dex), At Will Detect Good Detect Magic Invisibility (Self Only), 1/day Suggestion CL 6.  Commune 1/week 6 questions.  Alternate form into one or two forms (technically this could be anything up to Medium size, including Dwarf Ancestors and other such nonsense.  But I'll assume from the examples they meant any animal, so how about a Legendary Ape or Legendary Eagle?).  SR 17, Empathic Link

2 Nine Headed Zombie Hydras wearing crafted Mithral Chain Shirt Barding (900gp, 2400gp for crafted mithral armor)
2 Necrosis Carnexes wearing crafted Mithral Chain Shirts (400g in Cold Iron Bands, 800gp for crafted Mithral armor)
A few assorted big warbeast animals as appropriate to the campaign (dinosaurs, dire animals, or whatever other big war creatures are available, preferably Magebreed).

Items:  Lesser Metamagic Wand of Empower (9kgp), Lesser Metamagic Wand of Maximize (14kgp), Heward's Handy Haversack (2kgp), Orange Ioun Stone (15kgp), 2 4th level Pearls of Power (16kgp), 2 Second Level Pearls of Power (4kgp), Periapt of Wisdom +4 (16kgp), Mithral Chain Shirt (400gp), Deadwalker's Ring (2kgp), Novice Ring of the Diamond Mind (3kgp, get one of the save maneuvers)
Wealth 2.1kgp left over for whatever

Basic tactics:  walk around with the Hydras flanking him (with standing orders as before to attack anyone who attacks his party or anyone who his party attacks), Carnexes ordered to heal his minions and otherwise stay out of the line of fire, any animals trained to attack (and to not freak out around the undead).  When possible, use Necrotic Cysts followed by Necrotic Dominations to control potential allies and downed (but not killed) enemies.  Against this dragon, use both metamagic wands to fire a Scorching Ray if it gets too close, which will do 108+9d6 damage (two hits should kill it).  If it's out of range, web it so the zombies can come kill it.  Since White Dragons like to get up close and personal, this shouldn't be too much of an issue.  Note that there may be further minions here... animals are possible, as are dominated allies.  But I wasn't sure what to go with here.

And yes, this guy could solo the dragon, which has no attacks long range enough to effectively strafe safely.  Heck, he brings quite a party with him (dependent on what he manages to dominate).  I assume that's good enough?  And before anyone freaks out about the crafting... please see the DMG, which explicitly states in the section on starting above 1st level that you can craft gear at discounted price before the game starts.[/spoiler]

JaronK

[Sir Giacomo]

Please Giacomo, point out what was wrong? I mean, I wrote that up in about twenty minutes, so perhaps I missed something, but please, show me the error of my ways.

[spoiler]
Well, Lunaramblings, your adept build here in my view has the following problems when going against the mature adult white dragon:

• First of all, the white dragon has spot and listen as a class skill like all dragons. So it spots possibly better than the adept docent does.
• What is more of a problem is that your skeletons have no skills, and certainly no move silently/hide skills. The dragon with his maxed listen and spot of +24 will notice them (DC 0) from very far, I dare say and thus will be the one to get the surprise round, not the other way round.
• More importantly, the white dragon also has move silently and hide (you did not believe that the respective spot checks are the only ones that matter, did you?). It hides at +16 (maxed minus 8 for being huge) and you have only a more than 50% chance to spot him in his icy cave in case you get within 50ft-ish or closer (-1 for each 10ft). That both your adept and your docent can do spot checks does not help much here. The dragon with his blindsense of 60ft will notice your adept way before. Certainly when the adept moves with his horde at his side, and the adept even himself only has a move silently/hide of +0 total. Not that good.
• Even IF somehow the adept with his non-stealthy skeleton horde would be able to dig themselves in for an ambush (note that only the wyrm has burrowing, the others do not), and even BIGGER IF the dragon happens to walk across the ground/area where you dug yourselves in (note that it will probably fly and hunt outside its cave), that even THEN the skeletons cannot attack in the surprise round, since they only get a standard action. They would need to get up from prone (the non-burrowing ones) which already eats up a move action. Also, they cannot partial charge and attack since, dug in below ground, they have no line of sight/effect (and if they did, the dragon would notice them with blindsight. Sic!). Thus they dig themselves up out of the ground and then initiative is rolled. This they likely will win, for a charge attack each. Your adept will likely not win the initative, so the dragon can on his turn move out of range and fly up when faced by such a (even extremely unlikely) surprise attack from your necromantic group.

And seriously, can anyone else point out mistakes in my Adept?  I mean, I figured I was making a really basic Adept, with nothing objectionable about it.  Snakeman pointed out I can't Maximize and Enlarge in the same shot, but that's hardly a big deal.

JaronK

[spoiler]
First of all, let me thank you, JaronK that you put more effort into a detailed adept. This way, I hope I can show you why you probably are wrong about the possibilities of adepts in general and animate dead in particular.
Concerning your adept build

Having said that, let us move to where I see specific problems of your build and arguments.

• As far as I know, the necrotic cysts are touch range only and allow fort saves. No big help vs the dragon (or does your adept intend to charge it and eat combat reflexes and potential bite/snatch attack doing so?).

[snakeman830]

I suggest you think up a level 12 Monk build NOW.

Oh wait, you can't because you're trolling, not contributing.

[Lycanthromancer]

I’ll wait now for your reaction and then think on a level 12 monk build.

- Giacomo

I suggest you think up a level 12 Monk build NOW.

I concur. You're the self-proposed expert at building monks here. Snakeman830 and I came up with a really nice build that uses the monk's strengths. You should be better than us by a wide margin, since neither of us had really made a monk before.

We're calling you out, Giacomo. Put your money where your mouth is or concede that monks aren't what you say they are and never ever talk about them again.

[Solo]

Doesn't Giacomo have an entire guide filled with monk builds?

[Lycanthromancer]

Doesn't Giacomo have an entire guide filled with monk builds?

Which all suck and he knows this. Which is obviously why he hasn't thrown one at us.

[Shinzen]

JaronK, if you wanted to add both metamagic rod abilities onto a single rod, you could use both on a single spell if you wanted to. After all, it's two feats, but still only one rod, which segues neatly with the rod's rules text.

It just costs a small amount more.

Nah, honestly it was such a quick and dirty build that I threw together a few things that seemed useful.  If I was really going to get into it, I'd have gotten more useful gear.

@Shiz: It's in the page before this one, I think.  CR 12 Adept with an Imp familiar.  Designed to craft items for a party, have his familiar handle most social stuff, build things, and be a minion master.  Here, I'll put him up there again (note that he shouldn't be combining the rod effects into a single casting):

[spoiler]Herbert the Somewhat Special (25 Point Buy)
Lawful Neutral Human Adept 12 (68hp)
BAB 6, Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +14
Str 9, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 23, Cha 8
Feats:  Alertness, Corpse Crafter, Craft Wondrous Items, Improved Familiar, Mother Cyst,  Nimble Bones
Skills:  Craft Armorsmithing +10, Concentration +15, Handle Animal +10, Knowledge (The Religion) +10

Minions:

Familiar:  Imp
Tiny Outsider, 12 HD, 34hp, Init +3, Spd 20 Fly 50 (perfect), AC 26 (Touch 15, Flat Foot 23), BAB +6, Grapple -5, Attack +11 Melee (1d4 + Poison, Sting), Darkvision 60, Deliver Touch Speels, DR 5/good or silver, Fast Healing 2, Immunity to Poison, Improved Evasion, Resistance to Fire 5, Speak with Master, For +4, Ref +7, Will +7, Str 10, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 11, Wis 12, Cha 14, Diplomacy +8, Hide +17, Knowledge The Planes +6, Listen +7, Move Silently +9, Search +6, Spellcraft +6, Spot +7, Survival +1, Dodge, Weapon Finesse, Poison (DC 16, 1d4 Dex, 2d4 Dex), At Will Detect Good Detect Magic Invisibility (Self Only), 1/day Suggestion CL 6.  Commune 1/week 6 questions.  Alternate form into one or two forms (technically this could be anything up to Medium size, including Dwarf Ancestors and other such nonsense.  But I'll assume from the examples they meant any animal, so how about a Legendary Ape or Legendary Eagle?).  SR 17, Empathic Link

2 Nine Headed Zombie Hydras wearing crafted Mithral Chain Shirt Barding (900gp, 2400gp for crafted mithral armor)
2 Necrosis Carnexes wearing crafted Mithral Chain Shirts (400g in Cold Iron Bands, 800gp for crafted Mithral armor)
A few assorted big warbeast animals as appropriate to the campaign (dinosaurs, dire animals, or whatever other big war creatures are available, preferably Magebreed).

Items:  Lesser Metamagic Wand of Empower (9kgp), Lesser Metamagic Wand of Maximize (14kgp), Heward's Handy Haversack (2kgp), Orange Ioun Stone (15kgp), 2 4th level Pearls of Power (16kgp), 2 Second Level Pearls of Power (4kgp), Periapt of Wisdom +4 (16kgp), Mithral Chain Shirt (400gp), Deadwalker's Ring (2kgp), Novice Ring of the Diamond Mind (3kgp, get one of the save maneuvers)
Wealth 2.1kgp left over for whatever

Basic tactics:  walk around with the Hydras flanking him (with standing orders as before to attack anyone who attacks his party or anyone who his party attacks), Carnexes ordered to heal his minions and otherwise stay out of the line of fire, any animals trained to attack (and to not freak out around the undead).  When possible, use Necrotic Cysts followed by Necrotic Dominations to control potential allies and downed (but not killed) enemies.  Against this dragon, use both metamagic wands to fire a Scorching Ray if it gets too close, which will do 108+9d6 damage (two hits should kill it).  If it's out of range, web it so the zombies can come kill it.  Since White Dragons like to get up close and personal, this shouldn't be too much of an issue.  Note that there may be further minions here... animals are possible, as are dominated allies.  But I wasn't sure what to go with here.

And yes, this guy could solo the dragon, which has no attacks long range enough to effectively strafe safely.  Heck, he brings quite a party with him (dependent on what he manages to dominate).  I assume that's good enough?  And before anyone freaks out about the crafting... please see the DMG, which explicitly states in the section on starting above 1st level that you can craft gear at discounted price before the game starts.[/spoiler]

JaronK

For the Imp's alternate form there is actually a restrictive list: "Alternate Form (Su)
An imp can assume another form at will as a standard action. Each imp can assume one or two forms from the following list: Small or Medium monstrous spider, raven, rat, and boar."

Besides that, all the minions and items seem fine, I have no problem with crafting (How the hell do you expect the Artificer to be worth anything otherwise?) Let's assume for the sake of argument that you only have the Zombies (accessable easily by class spells) and not the myriad groups of warbeasts, not because I think they are unlikely, but to show a worst-case scenario for Giacomo.

Ok, so a Mature Adult White (CR 12) will have DR 10/ Magic and cast as a 3rd level sorcerer (Who the hell designed this progression? Wouldn't it make more sense to go 2 +2N with sorcerer casting?) which basically just means first level spells. He has SR 20, which could be increased with feats but you have a CL of 13, so it would be a waste to try to pump it overmuch. Your Hydras are not going to be much help unbuffed as they don't bypass his DR and 1d10+6 averages out to 1.5 damage a round per bite that hits. He could probably tank them if not for the Scorching Ray death. A chained Greater Magic Fang or Magic Fang would counter this.

It's only shot at countering you I could see would involve Blindsense, Fog Cloud or equivalent, and/or strafing with Entangling Exhalation breath weapon. Damage over time would be middling to useless, but a slow effect could slowly wear down your zombies if it had any way to counter the Scorching Ray death that you bring. It has a Touch AC of 8 and not even enough caster levels for a Mirror Image. Of course, if it could have it's loot as magic items that would change things as well. But your build seems to me to be capable of taking down the White Dragon handily even if I built it specifically to counter you, given the constraints. If it had some way to mitigate or counter the Fire damage or the touch attack of the ray, it would likely be able to win, however. Hmm, Charm Person to get a few low-will save allies is the only thing I can think of he could exploit, but most classes that would fail a will that low (It has 12 CHA, DC 12.) would be either useless or pushing the bounds of credibility.

Wait... Nerveskitter, if he wins Initiative he can Grapple you at +37 and likely tank the Hydras and others long enough to kill you the round after. Even if he loses initiative, he might take just enough from the Scorching Ray to still allow him to tank the Hydras long enough to Grapple you. At that point it's basically over.


So, which monk are you against?