Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin

[JaronK]

I didn't chose it, you did.  It's the only evil CR 12 dragon (at least in the Monster Manual).  The others are CR 11 or 13.  You said you wanted it to be against a CR 12 dragon.  A Mature Adult White Dragon is clearly the most likely CR 12 dragon for anyone to fight.

I think maybe you would like to present in more detail the build, the spells learned, and round-by-round the tactics that you would think would give the adept a better chance than the monk.

All I did was go with an Adept who has Scorching Ray, Web, and Animate Dead.  Adepts chose their spells like Clerics do.  I figure since this is an Adept who's having fun with Animate Dead, I'd get Corpse Crafter as one of the feats, and of course he'd pump his Wis score.  That's it though... all adepts could Web or Scorching Ray a dragon.

As for tactics... move in with the party, with the zombies on a constant order to stay within 30' of the adept, unless anyone in the party was attacked or attacked someone.  In that case, attack whoever attacked/was attacked by the party.  Stay behind the zombies to avoid the breath weapon (or behind obstacles) and fire Scorching Ray (remember, White Dragons have fire vulnerability), then use Web when you get a shot.  The zombies will start chasing the dragon around when a party member attacks (or gets attacked).

Remember the dragon is slowed even if he makes his save.  If he gets actually stuck, the zombies eat him.  If not, he's slowed down for a bit and the zombies might still eat him.  Either way, he's not flying away easily.  Plus, if nothing else you've made it easier for the party to take the dragon down.

If the zombies get there, they can hit with a lot of attacks.  They can also be ordered to grapple if needed.  Also, weren't we talking about 9 headed hydras (since that's what was randomly found)?  So that's 18 attacks between the two.  Either way, it's some extra damage, so it helps.  The dragon is being slowed (by webs) and hit for damage, keeping him away from squishier members of the party.  That's a solid contribution, I'd say.

Not really sure.  It was just a thought.  Even a regular scorching ray does a bunch of damage.  Maybe I'd just have lesser rods of extend, and use them on the webs to screw the dragon's attack vectors.

Fog cloud implies he's not moving around, but rather staying in the cloud.  In that case, zombies are all over him.  If he's flying about, webs and scorching rays are being shot at him.  But I'm not planning to one shot TKO the dragon here, just help.  Remember, if I do 1/4th his HP in a single round, the party is on track to kill him in that round.  Certainly, the dragon can't just take that kind of abuse for long... he's losing 1/3 of his HP per round at that point.  Also, spell resistance is pretty easy to deal with... I'd imagine I've got some kind of CL bumps here (How about a Bead of Karma used before the fight?).

So the adept with his zombies is in a party now? Well, in a party this looks already different. I daresay, though, that the zombies (from a long way alerting the dragon) and the close-range-only scorching ray are not exactly helping the party much.

Of course he's a in a party.  We're talking about Tier comparisons... which means normal play.  The question is if you're useful and can contribute.  This isn't arena fighting.  The zombies aren't going to alert the dragon any worse than any other tanky fighty type... even from 200' away the Dragon is unlikely to notice them, after all.  But yes, the Adept functions as area denial, using Webs and Zombies to make areas the Dragon doesn't want to be in, and sometimes trapping him, while blasting him for over 1/3 his HPs with every shot.

I pretty much meant Polymorph, for the most part.

They are ground-bound. And once animated and the cost is paid for, the controlling limit means there are no zombie/skeleton fliers. Of course, appropriate flyers that can fight well are quite rare (which is why you picked a hydra to animate ).

I picked the hydras because in the random scenario, that's what I got.  I really liked that Skeletal Storm Giant, but I didn't get him... he'd have range.  After killing this dragon, you can bet I'd animate him, as he'd be perfect with his solid HD and flight.

It's your scenario... you picked attacking a CR 12 dragon.  That pretty much means a Mature Adult White Dragon.  And yeah, I think in his lair is the most common place to do this, but the description of White Dragons says they like staying near the ground and climbing around, so it's hardly a bit assumption that Web might be useful.  It's not like he has long range attacks... he has to get close to attack too.  As for the Zombies, they're useful, but they're only one of the Adept's spells after all.  And let's be clear, if the Dragon tries to breathe on them once ever 1d4 rounds, he's dead.  The Necrosis Carnex heals them rather rapidly, and they have a TON of hitpoints.  And every time he gets in range to breathe, that's one more chance of getting webbed or Scorching Ray'd to death.  So if the dragon does that, then they're doing an amazing job of taking fire from the Dragon without any drain on party resources.

There's no need really, because as we've seen every Adept has the spells to do this.  Sure, you say Animate Dead and Polymorph are the single big spells... and yet Scorching Ray takes out 1/3 of the dragon's HP in a single hit (with no save, though SR applies).  If the Adept did have a lesser metamagic rod of Maximize (not sure if he could afford that) then that's 2/3 with a single shot.  And Web leaves the dragon in dire straights if it hits (and still slows him down a lot even if it doesn't).

The animated dragon would need to be one of HD 10 or lower for zombies and HD 20 for skeletal non-flying version (not possible to animate a bigger one). So this white dragon is out.

Nope.  See Draconomicon.  There's special rules for animating dragons.  There's no HD limit.  Also, a zombie dragon doesn't have double HD... instead it gets a whole bunch of bonus HP.  It also keeps its BAB and saves, and has other special rules.  So yeah, I get a crazy awesome zombie white dragon (and let go one of the hydras of course).  For the record, here's what you get when you make a zombie mature adult white dragon with Corpse Crafter and the obvious Desecrate:

[spoiler]Zombie White Dragon (Undead)
Size Huge
Hit Dice 265 HP (21D12+129)
Str 31, Dex 12, Con -, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 6
BAB/Grapple +21/+39
Attack Bite +31 (2d8+10) (other natural weapons don't matter since bite is best and it can only do one at a time)
Special Attacks:  Breath Weapon (3d6 Cold, DC 18 ref save), Crush (DC 18 ref, 2d8+15 + Pin), Frightful Presence (DC 18)
Special Qualities:   Icewalking, Keen Senses, Spell Resistance 20, Undead Traits, Immune to Paralysis, Immune to Cold, Blindsense, DR 5/Slashing, Slow
Fort +12, Ref +13, Wil +13 (Immune to anything requiring a fort save that doesn't work on objects)
Speed 60ft, Burrow 30ft, Fly 200ft (clumsy), Swim 60ft
Initiative +2
AC 19 (-2 Size, +10 Natural, +1 Dex), Touch 9, Flat Foot 28
Skills:  None
Feats:  Toughness

If you want to check this, the example zombie dragon is in fact a zombie white dragon, though it doesn't have Corpsecrafter on it, and it's younger.  Note that technically the zombie dragon can still partial action charge and full attack if it somehow got pounce, due to the wording of their version of the "slow" special quality (and note that the example zombie dragon does have a listed full attack).

He's great as a utility undead, since he's really good at detecting enemies and can go anywhere.  I'd absolutely lose a zombie hydra for this guy!  Sure, his offense isn't amazing, but he can crush people all over the place and his single attack does hit pretty hard. Also, any skeletons I raise are immune to his breath weapon, which could be handy.  More importantly, I can then ride a zombie dragon around.  Maybe I'd get a burrower's saddle (Races of Stone) and ride him underground too.  That seems handy.[/spoiler]

Let us wait with the monk for now.

You know, you keep making claims and then not being able to back them up.  You claimed your Monk was survivable, yet you claimed that these zombies were so fragile they'd die constantly.  I've yet to see you show that your Monk was more durable than the zombies.  I think it's high time you showed this.  Would you like to show how he's more durable than the Zombie White Dragon, the Zombie Hydras, or the Skeletal Storm Giant?

No no, you were quite sure your skill monkey Monk was still a decent Monk.  I'd like to see what it does.  I did show how the Expert would handle this dragon too, after all.  Surely your skill monkey Monk can do as well as an Expert in combat (since combat is more the Monk's specialty, and the Monk wasn't as good as the Expert in skills).  Go on, show what you've got.

JaronK

[snakeman830]

Jaron, may want to fix the formatting on the second half of your post.

[Sir Giacomo]

Hmmm. Quite amazing how the reactions go from "adept needs party" ... "dragon too tough for adept" now that a threat looms that the monk can do it new ideas jump up for the adept's defense 

OK. Would anyone like to point out the obvious mistakes in Lunarambling's and JaronK's ideas?
I'll wait for a while to see what will be posted.

- Giacomo

[ninjarabbit]

Meanwhile I'd like to see how the monk is going to deal with the dragon.

[Solo]

Hmmm. Quite amazing how the reactions go from "adept needs party" ... "dragon too tough for adept" now that a threat looms that the monk can do it new ideas jump up for the adept's defense 

OK. Would anyone like to point out the obvious mistakes in Lunarambling's and JaronK's ideas?
I'll wait for a while to see what will be posted.

- Giacomo

JaronK has poor formatting in his post.

[snakeman830]

Hmmm. Quite amazing how the reactions go from "adept needs party" ... "dragon too tough for adept" now that a threat looms that the monk can do it new ideas jump up for the adept's defense 

OK. Would anyone like to point out the obvious mistakes in Lunarambling's and JaronK's ideas?
I'll wait for a while to see what will be posted.

- Giacomo

JaronK has poor formatting in his post.

Hah!  I swordsaged ya!

[Lo77o]

Hmmm. Quite amazing how the reactions go from "adept needs party" ... "dragon too tough for adept" now that a threat looms that the monk can do it new ideas jump up for the adept's defense 

OK. Would anyone like to point out the obvious mistakes in Lunarambling's and JaronK's ideas?
I'll wait for a while to see what will be posted.

- Giacomo

Are you trying to be dense?   If this is a tier discussion, and i think we can all agree it is, then this has always been about how you can assist your party, or how you contribute to a party. I am sure that me, and 99% of the people who is reading this thread are aware of this.

Since 3.0 came out, and after 3.5, i have been playing every week for 1-2 evenings, and in all of that time we have had plenty of people in the group rolling a monk, or people from joining the group for a few months bringing monks with them. And most of them, with a few exceptions, where well made, optimized and played by competent players. And in all of that time, i have never seen anyone playing a monk who actually carried his own weight in the group. Now you Giacomo clearly think that a Monk can be a valid member in an adventuring group, and monks deserve a spot (unless you think this entire thread was about player vs player, or some other nonsense), and i would love to see a Monk build of yours for ECL 12. And i will even go so far as to bring it to my own group and play it my self. Or i will hand it over to a player who enjoys playing Monks. And will see if your Monk actually makes a difference.

For the whole adept/expert side of this argument, i personally, and i expect a lot of other people, can see how they would be able to assist or contribute in a wide range of both combat and non-combat encounters.

If i had a chance to pick between 2 types of adventuring companions, and one is "i run up and hit stuff, really hard, or lots of times, or i sneak up and hit stuff hard" and the other is "well, i have a wide array of options, none will do as much damage as the other guy, but in case we don't have to hit something i have 20 tricks up my sleeve, and if we have to hit stuff, i can still do that but only half as well as the other guy" i would always pick versatility.

[ninjarabbit]

Except the adept can hit as hard or harder than the monk via undead and animals from handle animal.

[Sobolev]

Hmmm. Quite amazing how the reactions go from "adept needs party" ... "dragon too tough for adept" now that a threat looms that the monk can do it new ideas jump up for the adept's defense 

OK. Would anyone like to point out the obvious mistakes in Lunarambling's and JaronK's ideas?
I'll wait for a while to see what will be posted.

- Giacomo

I think you are illiterate.  Two different people wrote things that said nothing of the sort.

[Solo]

Reading something is different from understanding it.

[JaronK]

Hmmm. Quite amazing how the reactions go from "adept needs party" ... "dragon too tough for adept" now that a threat looms that the monk can do it new ideas jump up for the adept's defense 

I said nothing about needing a party or the dragon was too tough, only that I felt he should be working with a party because that's how people play.  And to be clear, he's not too tough... the adept can kill the dragon in two or three shots (two if using a lesser rod of maximize) while your strategy for the dragon called for it doing one breath weapon attack every 1d4 rounds against the hydras.  So, Adept would win that one solo if the dragon were so foolish as to attack the nearly unkillable zombies.  I also am talking about a non optimized Adept at this point... every single Adept out there of this level can cast Scorching Ray and Animate Dead and Web.

But here, I'll give you a really basic Adept, going with the idea that he's something of a necromancer.  Nothing super optimized, nothing too crazy, but a general "minion master" style character (like we've been talking about) with animals and undead and such.

Herbert the Somewhat Special (25 Point Buy)
Lawful Neutral Human Adept 12 (68hp)
BAB 6, Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +14
Str 9, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 23, Cha 8
Feats:  Alertness, Corpse Crafter, Craft Wondrous Items, Improved Familiar, Mother Cyst,  Nimble Bones
Skills:  Craft Armorsmithing +10, Concentration +15, Handle Animal +10, Knowledge (The Religion) +10

Minions:

Familiar:  Imp
Tiny Outsider, 12 HD, 34hp, Init +3, Spd 20 Fly 50 (perfect), AC 26 (Touch 15, Flat Foot 23), BAB +6, Grapple -5, Attack +11 Melee (1d4 + Poison, Sting), Darkvision 60, Deliver Touch Speels, DR 5/good or silver, Fast Healing 2, Immunity to Poison, Improved Evasion, Resistance to Fire 5, Speak with Master, For +4, Ref +7, Will +7, Str 10, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 11, Wis 12, Cha 14, Diplomacy +8, Hide +17, Knowledge The Planes +6, Listen +7, Move Silently +9, Search +6, Spellcraft +6, Spot +7, Survival +1, Dodge, Weapon Finesse, Poison (DC 16, 1d4 Dex, 2d4 Dex), At Will Detect Good Detect Magic Invisibility (Self Only), 1/day Suggestion CL 6.  Commune 1/week 6 questions.  Alternate form into one or two forms (technically this could be anything up to Medium size, including Dwarf Ancestors and other such nonsense.  But I'll assume from the examples they meant any animal, so how about a Legendary Ape or Legendary Eagle?).  SR 17, Empathic Link

2 Nine Headed Zombie Hydras wearing crafted Mithral Chain Shirt Barding (900gp, 2400gp for crafted mithral armor)
2 Necrosis Carnexes wearing crafted Mithral Chain Shirts (400g in Cold Iron Bands, 800gp for crafted Mithral armor)
A few assorted big warbeast animals as appropriate to the campaign (dinosaurs, dire animals, or whatever other big war creatures are available, preferably Magebreed).

Items:  Lesser Metamagic Wand of Empower (9kgp), Lesser Metamagic Wand of Maximize (14kgp), Heward's Handy Haversack (2kgp), Orange Ioun Stone (15kgp), 2 4th level Pearls of Power (16kgp), 2 Second Level Pearls of Power (4kgp), Periapt of Wisdom +4 (16kgp), Mithral Chain Shirt (400gp), Deadwalker's Ring (2kgp), Novice Ring of the Diamond Mind (3kgp, get one of the save maneuvers)
Wealth 2.1kgp left over for whatever

Basic tactics:  walk around with the Hydras flanking him (with standing orders as before to attack anyone who attacks his party or anyone who his party attacks), Carnexes ordered to heal his minions and otherwise stay out of the line of fire, any animals trained to attack (and to not freak out around the undead).  When possible, use Necrotic Cysts followed by Necrotic Dominations to control potential allies and downed (but not killed) enemies.  Against this dragon, use both metamagic wands to fire a Scorching Ray if it gets too close, which will do 108+9d6 damage (two hits should kill it).  If it's out of range, web it so the zombies can come kill it.  Since White Dragons like to get up close and personal, this shouldn't be too much of an issue.  Note that there may be further minions here... animals are possible, as are dominated allies.  But I wasn't sure what to go with here.

And yes, this guy could solo the dragon, which has no attacks long range enough to effectively strafe safely.  Heck, he brings quite a party with him (dependent on what he manages to dominate).  I assume that's good enough?  And before anyone freaks out about the crafting... please see the DMG, which explicitly states in the section on starting above 1st level that you can craft gear at discounted price before the game starts.

JaronK

[snakeman830]

Only one Metamagic Rod can be applied to any given spell, jaron, but the point remains that two shots downs the dragon.

[Lunaramblings]

Hmmm. Quite amazing how the reactions go from "adept needs party" ... "dragon too tough for adept" now that a threat looms that the monk can do it new ideas jump up for the adept's defense 

OK. Would anyone like to point out the obvious mistakes in Lunarambling's and JaronK's ideas?
I'll wait for a while to see what will be posted.

- Giacomo

Please Giacomo, point out what was wrong? I mean, I wrote that up in about twenty minutes, so perhaps I missed something, but please, show me the error of my ways.

[JaronK]

Only one Metamagic Rod can be applied to any given spell, jaron, but the point remains that two shots downs the dragon.

Really?  How annoying.  I'm not used to dealing with blast spells.  In that case, probably dump the Empower rod in exchange for, I dunno, some undeady thing or such like.  Or some nice utility items.  Or more minions.  I dunno.  It's still 108 damage per shot (with three chances to crit!) and that's enough to cause serious damage.

I wasn't sure what point buy to use either, but I decided I was going to do it with low optimization, hence the 25 point buy.  I think that's clearly an Adept who's useful in lots of situations though (note the Imp has a ton of useful skills including Diplomacy and amazing stealth abilities).  And I'm pretty sure he counts as low optimization... he's using Animate Dead exactly as intended (animate stuff you find while you adventure), he's shooting stuff with blast spells (and using Web, yay), and he's using the crafting technique spelled out by the DMG.  Pretty straight forward, I think.

JaronK

[Sobolev]

I wasn't sure what point buy to use either, but I decided I was going to do it with low optimization, hence the 25 point buy.  I think that's clearly an Adept who's useful in lots of situations though (note the Imp has a ton of useful skills including Diplomacy and amazing stealth abilities). 

JaronK

That just shows that Imps are strong, not Adepts.  I mean any Monk could splash a couple levels of Sorcerer and then get an Imp.  Prove that it's the Adept JaronK.  Plus, the metamagic rod just shows that Metamagic rods are strong! What if your Adept was naked, at -3 HP?  I think if you could beat the Dragon at that point we could be sure it was the Adept.

/sarcasm

[Shinzen]

Just use zombie hamster ball engines to power water pumps and you can even make the ball a sealed globe.


Thousand of years later people forget why those balls revolve.

Campaign setting stolen.

If you're going that way, you even have varying power source sizes, ratballs for personal rotary power supply, T-Rexballs for industrial use...

I saw a campaign based entirely around the tarrasque once. They chopped it up for all sorts of uses. Food, housing... They even fermented its blood for an alcoholic beverage.

Oh /tg/, don't ever change. I remember that thread.

[BeholderSlayer]

Come on guys, S-G is trolling, whoever he is...

[Bauglir]

Something like this?

Pictured above: The worst thing I have ever done.

[Shinzen]

We could probably solve this by having a neutral third party DM a fight between said CR 12 white dragon, a pre-made identical party to assist, and Giacomo playing his Monk with JaronK playing his Adept. Or even just a straight up 1 on 1 vs the dragon or another monster fight. Or both, as it seems each side is arguing independently here...

In the interests of peace and neutrality, I'd volunteer to do the DMing. If we are assuming an optimized character however we should also assume the DM is optimizing his dragons by selecting better feats or spells (as I often do with some low-powered monsters, seriously Wizards, what's with the hard-on for Toughness and Alertness?).

[snakeman830]

Why bother volunteering?  Giaccomo won't bring anything.