Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin

[Solo]

I'm glad then that in the pursuit of truth we have found out that an Adept can get a zombie hydra through use of his class abilities.

[ninjarabbit]

I'm glad then that in the pursuit of truth we have found out that an Adept can get a zombie hydra through use of his class abilities.

You're right but honestly an adept using zombie hydras probably belongs on the TO board.

[Sir Giacomo]

I'm glad then that in the pursuit of truth we have found out that an Adept can get a zombie hydra through use of his class abilities.

That I never doubted...in case he finds a fresh hydra corpse. And what that zombie then can do is an entirely different matter.

- Giacomo

[Solo]

Why would he neee do find a fresh Hyrda corpse given that he could just kill a live hydra?

An Adept, who gets Animate Dead at level 8, with 11 ranks in K. Nature, a 14 Int, and a +2 synergy bonus from Survival can't make the DC 15 knowledge check for basic information on where a hydra is.

Whether or not having ranks in K. Nature to find hydras is reasonable depends on if you think having ranks in a skill that you plan to use in your build is reasonable. That brings me to an old saying; people who live in glass monasteries shouldn't throw wands.

As for killing it, no doubt some trick could be arranged. JaronK could probably give a few pointers. Offhand, flying on a mount that you raise using Handle Animal would be useful. Shooting poisoned crossbow bolts using poison from your snake familiar.

[Sir Giacomo]

Here's more fun zombies, assuming they were animated in a desecrated altar

Zombie Criosphinx

20d12 + 40 profane +3 from toughness hps (163 hps), 60' fly, pounce, rake 1d6 +5 (+3 str, +2 profane), +18 attack bonus (+10 BAB, +7 str, +2 profane, -1 size), gore attack for 2d6 +9 (+7 str, +2 profane) and 2 claw attacks for 1d6 +5 (+3 str, +2 profane)  and a slam attack for 1d8 +5 damage (+3 str, +2 profane), Base AC 22 (+14 natural, -1 size, -1 dex) and DR 5/slashing

So now the adept has a flying pouncer (kept under the clause that zombies keep all Ex abilites that help in combat) that can serve as a mount for 500 gps.

Or something a little less exotic

Zombie dire lion

16d12 + 36 profane +3 hps (135 hps), improved grab, pounce, rake 1d6 +6 (+4 str, +2 profane), +17 attack bonus (+8 BAB, +8 str, +2 profane, -1 size), 2 claw attacks for 1d6 +10 damage (+8 str, +2 profane), 1 bite for 1d8 +6 damage (+4 str, +2 profane), and slam attack for 1d8 +6 damage (+4 str, +2 profane), Base AC of 17(+7 natural, +1 Dex, -1 AC).

Anadept can have a dire lion for the low low price of 400 gps.

[Solo]

"Giacomo", you seem to have a lot of time on your hands. Riddle me this: what is the Monk doing against CR 12 threats so that we may compare the performance of these two classes.

[ninjarabbit]

Colossal monstrous scropion: adept uses his zombie sphinx (or whatever else flies) to fly above the scorpion's range and shoots poisoned crossbot bolts at it.

[Solo]

Ninjarabbit, I do believe a zombie lion loses his Pounce.

[ninjarabbit]

I'm operating under the clause that zombies keep their Ex abilities that improve it's melee attacks. Pounce is Ex and agruably it does fall under that since a zombie can still charge and make an attack at the end of the charge.

If it doesn't work no big deal, change zombie dire lion to skeleton androsphinx or something else with pounce, ends up being cheaper but less durable.

[Solo]

Oh, I see what you're doing. Thanks for clearing that up.

[JaronK]

A 12 headed zombie hydra...

Adepts can't make those.  Animate Dead can only animate 10 HD or less creatures as Zombies.  So, 10 headed hydras are the best you can do short of Plague of Undead (a 9th level spell that Adepts don't get).

JaronK

[Solo]

Are there ways of getting around that limit?

[JaronK]

I'm glad then that in the pursuit of truth we have found out that an Adept can get a zombie hydra through use of his class abilities.

You're right but honestly an adept using zombie hydras probably belongs on the TO board.

Why is it TO to use Animate Dead?  It's just a class feature!  And it's not even that great, it's just better than what most Monks (at least that we've seen of late) can pull off.

And to be clear, it's not just Hydras.  Any creature with 10 HD (or less) with a powerful attack action and high natural armor makes a good Zombie.  Any melee creature with 20 HD that doesn't rely on special abilities or natural armor and doesn't use Ex flight makes a good Skeleton.  Giants, for example, often make solid Zombies.  Skeletal Soarwhales are pretty cool too.  It's completely reasonable for an Adept to raise the nastiest melee monsters he goes against.

Solo:  The only way around that limit for Animate Dead is dragons (Draconomicon has special rules for raising dragons that lets Skeletal and Zombie dragons exceed the caps).  This means that in the long run dragons are usually the best Animate Dead targets (but don't forget about Necrosis Carnexes, which are also made with the spell at CL 11+).

JaronK

[Sir Giacomo]

"Giacomo", you seem to have a lot of time on your hands. Riddle me this: what is the Monk doing against CR 12 threats so that we may compare the performance of these two classes.

Well, I guess you know from personal experience what a level 12 monk of mine (in core rules) did vs CR 12 encounters.
And as you know well, there is this this other level 12 monk build of mine in the legendary fighter thread. I leave it to your imagination as to what that monk will be able to do vs CR 12 creatures.

- Giacomo

[ninjarabbit]

Why is it TO to use Animate Dead?  It's just a class feature!  And it's not even that great, it's just better than what most Monks (at least that we've seen of late) can pull off.

Sarcasm

[oslecamo]

Why is it TO to use Animate Dead? 

Using animate dead by itself is not TO. Assuming you can easily find the exact creature you need, kill it, and then all the needed maintenance whitout problem is a lot more questionable. Zombies in particular don't heal naturaly (and the adept doesn't have inflict spells), slow you down, can be easily worn out by afar (in particular because they have zero stealth so they'll also warn everybody something dangerous is aproaching).

This is, would you allow a sorceror 8 to start a game with  any combination of 32 monster followers that aren't immune to mind-affecting because he could theoretically have Charm Monster'd them all over 8 days and then keep renewing the charms?

Would you allow an evil cleric to start with a small army of Paragon 1 HD skeletons because he could've theoreticaly rebuked them? (as paragon template greatly improves combat stats but not turn resistance)

Adepts may have a lot of spells, but they don't have Call Hydra/giant/creature that's lovely to animate dead. Such creatures also have no sell price. They may not even exist at all in the campaign area in question. Assuming they're right there for the picking is indeed kinda TO.

[Sir Giacomo]

*perfect explanation of what TO can mean with animate dead*

+1

- Giacomo

[ImperatorK]

Smart Stuff.

Quoted for Truth.
Oh, and also +1.

[Solo]

"Giacomo", you seem to have a lot of time on your hands. Riddle me this: what is the Monk doing against CR 12 threats so that we may compare the performance of these two classes.

Well, I guess you know from personal experience what a level 12 monk of mine (in core rules) did vs CR 12 encounters.

Died in the first encounter, was useless in the second, and a liability to the party in the third, was rescued by the rest of the party in the fourth.

Or am I thinking of a different monk?

And as you know well, there is this this other level 12 monk build of mine in the legendary fighter thread. I leave it to your imagination as to what that monk will be able to do vs CR 12 creatures.

Sing me no song! Read me no rhyme!
Don't waste my time, Show me!
Don't talk of June, Don't talk of fall!
Don't talk at all! Show me!
  

Using animate dead by itself is not TO. Assuming you can easily find the exact creature you need, kill it, and then all the needed maintenance whitout problem is a lot more questionable. Zombies in particular don't heal naturaly (and the adept doesn't have inflict spells), slow you down, can be easily worn out by afar (in particular because they have zero stealth so they'll also warn everybody something dangerous is aproaching).

This is, would you allow a sorceror 8 to start a game with  any combination of 32 monster followers that aren't immune to mind-affecting because he could theoretically have Charm Monster'd them all over 8 days and then keep renewing the charms?

Would you allow an evil cleric to start with a small army of Paragon 1 HD skeletons because he could've theoreticaly rebuked them? (as paragon template greatly improves combat stats but not turn resistance)

Adepts may have a lot of spells, but they don't have Call Hydra/giant/creature that's lovely to animate dead. Such creatures also have no sell price. They may not even exist at all in the campaign area in question. Assuming they're right there for the picking is indeed kinda TO.

Thoughts on partially charged wands?

[ImperatorK]

Thoughts on partially charged wands?

Was oslecamo propossing them or using in his build or defending them in Giacomos build?