Author Topic: Help me sort this mess out...  (Read 2113 times)

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Kuroimaken

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Help me sort this mess out...
« on: November 09, 2010, 10:29:33 PM »
bard1/Major Bloodline(Titan)1/Sorcerer1/wizard1/Major Bloodline+1/Binder1/Major Bloodline+1
/spellthief1/Anima Mage10/SC10/UM10/Tainted Scholar3

This is my "build" on an epic level campaign. The DM has a set rule in it that in order to start up a new PrC you have to finish taking all ten levels of the previous. The Bloodline levels are there mostly for abusable Binder goodness (I needed the ability to apply Metamagics at no cost).

Now, my initial schtick with this guy is basically horrendous CL abuse via Sublime Chord + Master Spellthief. I need to arrange these levels in the order most beneficial to me with as little tweaking (preferrably none) as possible. UM is not absolutely necessary to this build, but Tainted Scholar is.

Can anybody help me out?
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[SPOILER]
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Get yours.[/SPOILER]

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bearsarebrown

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Re: Help me sort this mess out...
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2010, 12:10:03 AM »
bard1/Major Bloodline(Titan)1/Sorcerer1/wizard1/Major Bloodline+1/Binder1/Major Bloodline+1
/spellthief1/Anima Mage10/SC10/UM10/Tainted Scholar3

Okay lets do this.

Bard 1
Sorcerer 1
Wizard 1 + 10(AM) +10(UM) +3(TS)
Spellthief 1
Anima Mage adds to Wizard
SC 10 + 7(UM)
UM adds fully to Wizard and partially to SC(because of spellthief you can always pick which you want)
Tainted Scholar adds to Wizard

Wizard 24
SC 17 -> CL= 10(SC levels)+24(Wizard levels)=34. All classes now cast a CL 34.
UM grants +3 CL and I assume you always do the Blood component for +1 from TS. And Bloodlines add +3CL to every class. +7 to every class.
Bard/Sorcerer/Wizard/Sublime is 4 classes. 4*(34+7)=164.


...I think. This math gets pretty stupid. Will be different if Bloodlines actually advance spellcasting. I think the only advance CL so that's what I did.

Bauglir

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Re: Help me sort this mess out...
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2010, 12:13:02 AM »
bard1/Major Bloodline(Titan)1/Sorcerer1/wizard1/Major Bloodline+1/Binder1/Major Bloodline+1
/spellthief1/Anima Mage10/SC10/UM10/Tainted Scholar3

Okay lets do this.

Bard 1
Sorcerer 1
Wizard 1 + 10(AM) +10(UM) +3(TS)
Spellthief 1
Anima Mage adds to Wizard
SC 10 + 7(UM)
UM adds fully to Wizard and partially to SC(because of spellthief you can always pick which you want)
Tainted Scholar adds to Wizard

Wizard 24
SC 17 -> CL= 10(SC levels)+24(Wizard levels)=34. All classes now cast a CL 34.
UM grants +3 CL and I assume you always do the Blood component for +1 from TS. And Bloodlines add +3CL to every class. +7 to every class.
Bard/Sorcerer/Wizard/Sublime is 4 classes. 4*(34+7)=164.


...I think. This math gets pretty stupid. Will be different if Bloodlines actually advance spellcasting. I think the only advance CL so that's what I did.

Recommendation: Take SC before any other PrCs. I'm like 90% sure you lose advancement in any classes you take before it that are "+1 level spellcasting" types. This looks like it may be impossible for you, however, so I don't know.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

bearsarebrown

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Re: Help me sort this mess out...
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2010, 12:21:13 AM »
Recommendation: Take SC before any other PrCs. I'm like 90% sure you lose advancement in any classes you take before it that are "+1 level spellcasting" types. This looks like it may be impossible for you, however, so I don't know.
???Please explain.

Bauglir

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Re: Help me sort this mess out...
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2010, 12:24:12 AM »
Recommendation: Take SC before any other PrCs. I'm like 90% sure you lose advancement in any classes you take before it that are "+1 level spellcasting" types. This looks like it may be impossible for you, however, so I don't know.
???Please explain.

Sublime Chord checks levels, not caster levels, but if you advance Sublime Chord casting then you're fine because you're advancing the entry that says "Levels in this class, plus levels in another class"; if you're not advancing that particular casting entry, it's still checking just the levels in another class, not its CL. To be fair, you keep the actual casting of other classes, just not the CL.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

Kuroimaken

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Re: Help me sort this mess out...
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2010, 12:54:11 AM »
Recommendation: Take SC before any other PrCs. I'm like 90% sure you lose advancement in any classes you take before it that are "+1 level spellcasting" types. This looks like it may be impossible for you, however, so I don't know.
???Please explain.

Sublime Chord checks levels, not caster levels, but if you advance Sublime Chord casting then you're fine because you're advancing the entry that says "Levels in this class, plus levels in another class"; if you're not advancing that particular casting entry, it's still checking just the levels in another class, not its CL. To be fair, you keep the actual casting of other classes, just not the CL.

Ok, how do we keep the CL at ridiculously high levels? I may be able to switch TS and UM around, sock in three more levels of Wizard so as to enter SC  before any other PrC, finish TS, then go into UM. Not optimal, but meh. I don't have to worry about my slots per day anyway, as long as I keep 9th level casting.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


Bauglir

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Re: Help me sort this mess out...
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2010, 01:52:32 PM »
If you can dump 2 feats I think you can access SC a level early through the Favored Contact thing. Any PrCs whose class features are the important thing go before SC, because the only thing is that their casting progression doesn't contribute. That leaves 4 levels of Anima Mage before you could take Sublime Chord, given the original build. Haven't got time to number crunch, but I think the best option MIGHT be dipping a bunch of classes with casting instead of UM, if you don't care about slots per day; each one adds your SC caster level again to your total, because SC drags it up from 1, which is a bigger bonus than UM provides, I think.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

Kuroimaken

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Re: Help me sort this mess out...
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2010, 03:20:22 PM »
Part of the problem stems from the fact the DM's reading of Master Spellthief seems pretty strict. Hence the tweaking.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


awaken DM golem

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Re: Help me sort this mess out...
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2010, 08:52:05 PM »
Yeah, well Bloodlines are still contentious after 5 years.
PLZ's interpretation isn't much different than what I'm'n'a say.
And not that this is something I know that much about.


Bloodline 3 is gonna add +3 to some things, but certainly not all.

Bard 1 or 4
Sorcerer 1 or 4
Wizard 1 or 4
Spellthief 1 or 4
Anima Mage (?) 10 or 13 ... and ??
SC 10 or 13 ... and I've no idea about: "+ 7(UM)"
UM 10 or 13 ... and I've no idea about:
" ... adds fully to Wizard and partially to SC(because of spellthief you can always pick which you want) ... "
Tainted Scholar 3 or 6 ... maybe adds to Wizard / idk

So ... idk whether your numbers are right,
but the "numbers" I've posted are dead on (!), relative to who knows what ?!


Minor Idea --- since Tainted Scholar is a somewhat updated version of the Maho-Tsukai blood caster,
you could use the Maho version instead ... it's possible the level buy-off switching weirdness would make a difference.

Kuroimaken

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Re: Help me sort this mess out...
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2010, 09:04:08 PM »
Yeah, well Bloodlines are still contentious after 5 years.
PLZ's interpretation isn't much different than what I'm'n'a say.
And not that this is something I know that much about.


Bloodline 3 is gonna add +3 to some things, but certainly not all.

Bard 1 or 4
Sorcerer 1 or 4
Wizard 1 or 4
Spellthief 1 or 4
Anima Mage (?) 10 or 13 ... and ??
SC 10 or 13 ... and I've no idea about: "+ 7(UM)"
UM 10 or 13 ... and I've no idea about:
" ... adds fully to Wizard and partially to SC(because of spellthief you can always pick which you want) ... "
Tainted Scholar 3 or 6 ... maybe adds to Wizard / idk

So ... idk whether your numbers are right,
but the "numbers" I've posted are dead on (!), relative to who knows what ?!


Minor Idea --- since Tainted Scholar is a somewhat updated version of the Maho-Tsukai blood caster,
you could use the Maho version instead ... it's possible the level buy-off switching weirdness would make a difference.

I don't think it's a good idea... in 3.5 there are actual BENEFITS to Taint.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!