A standard of optimization across the levels

[bearsarebrown]

Yeah, or failing that, refuse to use any weapons with a crit multiplier greater than x2 for the first two levels.

Even still, a crossbow shot will take out a Wizard 50% of the time.

[Sunic_Flames]

It would be better if the DM DID use weapons with a critical multiplier over 2.

Falchion = oh hi there, 15% chance to auto die every round.

Scythe = only 5% chance for an auto kill.

When you have enough HP that a double damage crit won't kill you, that's different. But that's also part of the reason why critical hits are a fail concept that cannot work.

[Sunic_Flames]

Yeah, or failing that, refuse to use any weapons with a crit multiplier greater than x2 for the first two levels.

Even still, a crossbow shot will take out a Wizard 25% of the time.

Fixed.

[bearsarebrown]

You're right. Forgot about Con.   

[Sunic_Flames]

You're right. Forgot about Con.   

Well if you forget about Con, you deserve to die at any level. The problem with level 1 and 2 is it doesn't matter if you're competent or not. There's no real strategy, and people just kind of randomly die at any moment. Even if the party isn't gimped, your options are to cheat every other dice roll, have to constantly pull punches, or just start at level 3. Which, is exactly the thing that stops gimp parties from being slaughtered. The fudging and holding back, that is.

I'm all for gimp toons being slaughtered mercilessly. Someone has to feed the monsters after all. But when there's no functional difference between gimp toons and people with a clue, something is fucked. Thus, skip to level 3. Otherwise the comment about throwaway comedy devices while snarky is also accurate.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

The whole point of lower levels is for your characters to be ultra-paranoid, and kill the monsters with a minmum of combat.  You should be playing more metal gear solid than Halo.

[X-Codes]

The whole point of lower levels is for your characters to be ultra-paranoid, and kill the monsters with a minmum of combat.  You should be playing more metal gear solid than Halo.

+1

[Sunic_Flames]

The whole point of lower levels is for your characters to be ultra-paranoid, and kill the monsters with a minmum of combat.  You should be playing more metal gear solid than Halo.

Except you're still at the level where pure randomness matters more than actual skill. And randomness is the anti player. Which means you fuck up stealth checks often (especially if the entire party isn't good at it) and get caught. And unlike higher levels, you don't have the tools to deal with fuck ups. Even a level 3 character, if not low tier will have several distinctive tricks.

[RobbyPants]

It would be better if the DM DID use weapons with a critical multiplier over 2.

Falchion = oh hi there, 15% chance to auto die every round.

Scythe = only 5% chance for an auto kill.

When you have enough HP that a double damage crit won't kill you, that's different. But that's also part of the reason why critical hits are a fail concept that cannot work.

Yeah, increasing the threat range instead of the multiplier is just as bad.  The falchion isn't as bad depending on the user's Str mod.  Assuming we're talking about orcs (the standard MM entry), then you're right.  You're looking at an average of 18 damage which auto-kills rogues and worse, and still one hit KOs clerics and better.

[BruceLeeroy]

All that means is that more planning and extra character sheets for the meat shield are required at level 1.


I like level 1 games. People aren't so attached to their characters that they act like little bitches all the time. Plus, a player falling in a 10' deep hole that has an angry rat (not dire) in it is a credible threat. How is that not hilarious? Especially when the other players fail their jump checks when they try to help.

[Sunic_Flames]

All that means is that more planning and extra character sheets for the meat shield are required at level 1.


I like level 1 games. People aren't so attached to their characters that they act like little bitches all the time. Plus, a player falling in a 10' deep hole that has an angry rat (not dire) in it is a credible threat. How is that not hilarious? Especially when the other players fail their jump checks when they try to help.

That's dangerously close to 'it's fun to fail'.

Yes, it promotes disposable character syndrome. Maybe you're fine with that, but most people would at least like to take the game semi seriously. Even the beer and pretzels types would rather not stop making modern cultural references to make new characters.

Robby: Thing is you're basically saying enemy with two handed weapon = game broken at this point. And even among one handed weapons, a decent longsword crit is doing 6-20. And that's the most generic weapon there is. With a Str of only 14. Still happens about once per 20 swings (assuming 50% chance to confirm). That falls under:

Even if the party isn't gimped, your options are to cheat every other dice roll, have to constantly pull punches, or just start at level 3. Which, is exactly the thing that stops gimp parties from being slaughtered. The fudging and holding back, that is.

Hell it's bad enough when the party has a bunch of weak classes and you have to ignore over half the MM section for their level to avoid slaughtering them. When you can't do things like 'make melee enemies with a decent Str, and a two handed weapon'?

I'm all for gimp toons being slaughtered mercilessly. Someone has to feed the monsters after all. But when there's no functional difference between gimp toons and people with a clue, something is fucked. Thus, skip to level 3. Otherwise the comment about throwaway comedy devices while snarky is also accurate.

[dark_samuari]

I almost never run my games past level 6. This is in part because I really enjoy low level games as I feel it forces a new level of intuitive thinking on the player. A game I'm going to start up soon at my school is a level 1 commoner campaign where the players have to handle increasingly difficult threats but with mundane tactics.

[RelentlessImp]

I almost never run my games to let my players have fun.

Fixed.

[dark_samuari]

As we all know fun can only be achieved when throwing around the most expensive of rockets.

[awaken DM golem]

Fun is the monsters are immune to the first wave of attacks (or randomly middle attacks).
After that they suck as usual, but die unusual deaths.
Players go What Happened?
DM goes pun pun F-bombed you in a way you can't possibly understand.
Players go That Sucks, Even Though We Won.

[dark_samuari]

I'm going to go a little bit wild here with an assumption but I'd wager to say most players do not play with such a mastery of the rules as some of the patrons to these boards. There are players at my university who have been playing for a very long time who still think alertness is a solid first level feat.

[Unbeliever]

I'm going to go a little bit wild here with an assumption but I'd wager to say most players do not play with such a mastery of the rules as some of the patrons to these boards. There are players at my university who have been playing for a very long time who still think alertness is a solid first level feat.

That's to a large extent true.  In most games I play in, a reasonably well-built low-tier character can compete well b/c we don't go all the way w/ what the top tiers can use and have our own, sometimes subtle, houserules.

But, I think the complaint about really low-level games is valid.  Put differently than it has been so far, I'd say that the reason I shy away from them is that low level characters have every incentive not to be heroic or interesting.  B/c I don't enjoy statting up characters all day long, the incentives the game gives me is to stay home, or to be extremely sneaky and exploit things in the game so that the character survives.  It's not that there's a challenge, I like that, but it's hard when there's literally a 5+% chance that you will die every round.  I play D&D for the stories and characters it elicits, and it's hard to think of a character as a Conan, or an Aragorn or [insert favorite fantasy archetype here] when you can't even take a step w/out possibly being killed.  I also think such characters don't have particularly interesting abilities. 

P.S.:  Alertness is a bad feat.  They are in a university, they should be able to do the math.  If they don't want to, that's their prerogative, but that hardly makes it a strong case for anything.  Its real defect is that it's incredibly uninteresting.

[RelentlessImp]

As we all know fun can only be achieved when throwing around the most expensive of rockets.

You've already admitted that half your games are spent in low-level insta-gib territory. Pure statistics means in 27 encounters you won't have a single character who hasn't been critted, and possibly insta-gibbed, and probably not a single member of the original "party" left alive. So the rockets don't have to be expensive.

[RobbyPants]

Robby: Thing is you're basically saying enemy with two handed weapon = game broken at this point. And even among one handed weapons, a decent longsword crit is doing 6-20. And that's the most generic weapon there is. With a Str of only 14. Still happens about once per 20 swings (assuming 50% chance to confirm). That falls under:

Even if the party isn't gimped, your options are to cheat every other dice roll, have to constantly pull punches, or just start at level 3. Which, is exactly the thing that stops gimp parties from being slaughtered. The fudging and holding back, that is.

Hell it's bad enough when the party has a bunch of weak classes and you have to ignore over half the MM section for their level to avoid slaughtering them. When you can't do things like 'make melee enemies with a decent Str, and a two handed weapon'?

I'm all for gimp toons being slaughtered mercilessly. Someone has to feed the monsters after all. But when there's no functional difference between gimp toons and people with a clue, something is fucked. Thus, skip to level 3. Otherwise the comment about throwaway comedy devices while snarky is also accurate.

All in all you're right, and I didn't put enough qualifiers in my original statement.  At 1st level, the types of NPCs I'd be throwing at the PCs would typically be warrior bandits with the 10, 10, 10, 11, 11, 11 array, so that longsword would only do an average of 9 on a crit, which isn't so terrible.  You're totally right that once you start throwing 14+ Str on a two-hander that stuff gets ugly fast.  That's why I also wouldn't use an MM orc at level 1.

Although, to be honest, it's been a long time since I've ran a level 1 game.  I started running minimum level 3 games about four years ago, so it's largely a moot point for me now.

[dark_samuari]

As we all know fun can only be achieved when throwing around the most expensive of rockets.

You've already admitted that half your games are spent in low-level insta-gib territory. Pure statistics means in 27 encounters you won't have a single character who hasn't been critted, and possibly insta-gibbed, and probably not a single member of the original "party" left alive. So the rockets don't have to be expensive.

I'm sorry I got lost somewhere in your claims. Could you re-explain how pure statistics equals fun for me again?