Author Topic: Complete Warrior is the worst thing to happen to 3.5.  (Read 43235 times)

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Ikeren

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Re: Complete Warrior is the worst thing to happen to 3.5.
« Reply #200 on: January 08, 2011, 05:28:09 PM »
Fighter 20:
Base con: 16 + 6 item + 2 tome + 4 levels + 2 template bought off = con 30.

HP: (10+19*5.5) = (114.5 + 20*10) = 314.5

Fighter 20:
Base con: 14, +6 item + 2 levels = 22
HP = 114.5+ (20*6) = 234.5

Barbarian 20 (does Fist in the Forest Get d12s? Cause it should be really in here. Maybe a LA bought off Feral Template in combo to ensure HD doesn't go below 10):
Base con: 18 + 6 item + 4 tome + 4 levels + 2 draconic template bought off, +2 racial, +2 mineral warrior (bought off) = 38
HP = 12+6.5 * 19 = 135.5 + (14 * 20) = 515.5 hp.

Not going to try to tell you left or right if what is unreasonable or not. Just providing some math. Apologies for any bad calculations.

Bloody Initiate

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Re: Complete Warrior is the worst thing to happen to 3.5.
« Reply #201 on: January 08, 2011, 05:31:27 PM »
Fighter 20:
Base con: 16 + 6 item + 2 tome + 4 levels + 2 dragonborn template bought off = con 30.

Now you can buy off another template.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Complete Warrior is the worst thing to happen to 3.5.
« Reply #202 on: January 08, 2011, 07:02:57 PM »
I love how people respond to that with such things as base Con 18, and level up points into Con (which of course, makes them hit like limp wristed pansies instead of actual threats) to try and prove 300 HP is standard (hint: most games aren't CE friendly) when even if all that is true (also hint: it's not) the aforementioned Gimp Slayer still does 170 + wang damage... which is 49 a hit, with auto hit/70%/45%/20% accuracy. And what do you know, that's close enough to 300 that a single crit means the difference between fine and dead. Course it could just add in Law Devotion + more PA, or Arcane Strike + more PA, or any other to hit buff + more PA and still kill you in one auto attack but that's beside the point.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Complete Warrior is the worst thing to happen to 3.5.
« Reply #203 on: January 08, 2011, 07:08:53 PM »
You can get a racial +6 to constitution without picking up any LA or overly gimping your other stats.

Con isn't that hard to get.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Complete Warrior is the worst thing to happen to 3.5.
« Reply #204 on: January 08, 2011, 08:08:38 PM »
You can get a racial +6 to constitution without picking up any LA or overly gimping your other stats.

Con isn't that hard to get.

Using what?
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There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Complete Warrior is the worst thing to happen to 3.5.
« Reply #205 on: January 08, 2011, 08:09:39 PM »
Dragonborn lesser ice/ooze paragenasi.  Or dragonborn lesser maeluth.  

Icedweller (dragon 306) racial mod is LA+0, so you could actually get a racial +8 con without LA.


So the stat mods for dragonborn ice-dwelling lesser ooze paragenasi would be -2 dex, +8 con, -4 cha.  


Seriously, though.  There's virtually no reason not to take ice-dweller if you aren't SAD for cha.  +2 con, -2 cha for no LA, plus a skill bonus and ray of frost.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2011, 08:14:59 PM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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Bauglir

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Re: Complete Warrior is the worst thing to happen to 3.5.
« Reply #206 on: January 08, 2011, 08:11:36 PM »
Dragonborn lesser ice/ooze paragenasi.

Mongrelfolk work too, if you want to be less exotic.

Sunic, everything I've posted so far has been "This is what a build that doesn't give a shit looks like", not "This is the best a melee character can hope for." A reasonably optimized dragon is gonna tear it apart, but that's not a problem with critical hits. When you are a melee combatant, 14 base Con and 2 points through leveling is not giving a shit. Particularly if your base race doesn't have a bonus either (I mean, the least you could do is Be A Dwarf)
« Last Edit: January 08, 2011, 08:13:08 PM by Bauglir »
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Ikeren

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Re: Complete Warrior is the worst thing to happen to 3.5.
« Reply #207 on: January 08, 2011, 08:48:33 PM »
The options I was presenting were an attempt at "medium", "not paying attention" and "trying." I concede there are more optimal options, but I imagine they would involve compromising some positive features.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Complete Warrior is the worst thing to happen to 3.5.
« Reply #208 on: January 09, 2011, 10:50:42 AM »
Translation: Every beatstick is some kind of science show freak, using Dragon (read: Paizil) material.

Let me know when that slippery slope gives way and you fall to your death.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Complete Warrior is the worst thing to happen to 3.5.
« Reply #209 on: January 09, 2011, 02:29:08 PM »
I see, you don't allow beatsticks to optimize.

That explains a lot.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Complete Warrior is the worst thing to happen to 3.5.
« Reply #210 on: January 09, 2011, 02:39:56 PM »
I see, you don't allow beatsticks to optimize.

That explains a lot.

Hi Welcome

If you want a more substantial response, you must first present serious and valid arguments.
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There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Bauglir

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Re: Complete Warrior is the worst thing to happen to 3.5.
« Reply #211 on: January 09, 2011, 03:51:38 PM »
Translation: Every beatstick is some kind of science show freak, using Dragon (read: Paizil) material.

Let me know when that slippery slope gives way and you fall to your death.

Translation: I completely misunderstand what people are saying, and so am going to stop making real replies. Also, I think Mongrelfolk and/or Dragonborn are Dragon material for some reason?
« Last Edit: January 09, 2011, 03:55:10 PM by Bauglir »
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

Bloody Initiate

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Re: Complete Warrior is the worst thing to happen to 3.5.
« Reply #212 on: January 09, 2011, 04:13:50 PM »
Aside from certain gems (ToB, PsyWar, CoDzilla) that can look like a normal adventurer, most beatsticks DO end up looking like monsters. After all the Druid does it with Wildshape and the Wizard does it with Polymorph/Shapechange etc.

Outsiders who both look human and are effective in melee are... outsiders.

However I'm not sure how pointing out that beatsticks tend to end up ugly in combat is really a big deal. The popular "best" wizard races are fucking kobolds. I suppose the difference is that you don't HAVE to play a ridiculous kobold in order to be an effective wizard. You often must become a monster to effectively combat monsters if your game is going to be melee.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2011, 04:16:05 PM by Bloody Initiate »
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Midnight_v

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Re: Complete Warrior is the worst thing to happen to 3.5.
« Reply #213 on: January 09, 2011, 05:27:40 PM »
Translation: Every beatstick is some kind of science show freak, using Dragon (read: Paizil) material.

Let me know when that slippery slope gives way and you fall to your death.

Translation: I completely misunderstand what people are saying, and so am going to stop making real replies. Also, I think Mongrelfolk and/or Dragonborn are Dragon material for some reason?
No. Sunic is right.* The suggestion that "Dragonborn lesser ice/ooze paragenasi.  Or dragonborn lesser maeluth." is in anyway the norm is intellectually insulting.   :pout
 People don't want to play that shit in normal games, unless its a horror game, because we almost never read about anything like that as a hero. Shit you can barely get people to play a DWARF half the damn time.
Playing monster man for mechinical benifit, just fucking sucks and should probbably be Non-fuctional in any non-dungeon encounter, so we spend our life with the Ooze dragon genie under the blanket and pull him out for fisticuffs... that goes beyond the fighter not having diplomacy...
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Complete Warrior is the worst thing to happen to 3.5.
« Reply #214 on: January 09, 2011, 07:30:17 PM »
I said it was trivial to get that amount of bonus.  Ice-dweller is easy to justify.  

"I am a gruff and tough fighter from the frigid northern wastes"

There.  Done.  Every campaign setting has a frigid northern waste.  And charisma is a dump stat for the vast majority of melee characters.  If we're going to assume competence upon the part of a spellcaster's player, we have to assume likewise for the melee dude's player.  Otherwise the argument boils down to "if you try to make your character better, you make your character better".

If your players aren't willing to be dwarves, why are you expecting them to be willing to be 10 headed hydras or dimension creating demigods?


"I'm a short dude from the Northlands!  I serve Bahamut!"  +6 con, -4 cha -2 dex
"I'm a dwarf from hell!  I serve nobody!" +4 con, -2 dex
"I'm a dude from southern tropics!  I was really ugly until I turned my life around thanks to Bahamut!" +6 con, -2 dex, -2 cha
"I'm a really angry dude who lives in the tropics!  I hate coconut crabs!"  +4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha
« Last Edit: January 09, 2011, 07:38:05 PM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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Midnight_v

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Re: Complete Warrior is the worst thing to happen to 3.5.
« Reply #215 on: January 09, 2011, 07:56:39 PM »
Quote
If your players aren't willing to be dwarves, why are you expecting them to be willing to be 10 headed hydras or dimension creating demigods?
I'm not expecting them to do this. Ice-dweller may well be easy to justify.
and no offensnse, but, I'm going to admit that while I have dragon magazines I had no idea that existed. However, while I've been gaming in consitently (twice a week or so) for the entiretly of this 3.X extravaganza. I've never had anyone consider dragon magazine. Anecdotal I know.
Mostly I was  responding to *this*
[quote]"Dragonborn lesser ice/ooze paragenasi.  Or dragonborn lesser maeluth."[/quote]
Vs.
Quote
Every beatstick is some kind of science show freak, using Dragon (read: Paizil) material
I'm with sunic on that one, mostly because shit like that "SHOULD" affect the narrative in someway.
Quote
"I'm a short dude from the Northlands!  I serve Bahamut!"  +6 con, -4 cha -2 dex
"I'm a dwarf from hell!  I serve nobody!" +4 con, -2 dex
"I'm a dude from southern tropics!  I was really ugly until I turned my life around thanks to Bahamut!" +6 con, -2 dex, -2 cha
"I'm a really angry dude who lives in the tropics!  I hate coconut crabs!"  +4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha 

Reflavoring? Is that what you're suggesting? Get the benefits of being completly non standard and non of the drawbacks? I don't think thats trivial, really, or even optimization perse... I'm not sure what that idea set behind that is actually. No offense, but I honestly don't get it.
I suppose multi-templating just seems like a fucking joke to me, Ghosts fighters, Half-illithid barbarians, Awakend giant spiders? I mean you can do all kinds of shit in D&D that virtually fails to meet anyones expectation of what the heroic dudes on the cover look like, so yeah... you could "justify" or "reflavor" or use dragon magazine issues that well I can't say how many people have but I'd imagine few. . .
Or you could you know, be reasonable and use maybe I don't know a "dwarf barbarian" which is the most likely high hitpoint Pc anyones gonna encounter.
I'm not taking anything away from anybody saying that or no trying to, I'm just saying for the sake of argument, thats how I veiw it.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Complete Warrior is the worst thing to happen to 3.5.
« Reply #216 on: January 09, 2011, 07:59:50 PM »
Translation: Every beatstick is some kind of science show freak, using Dragon (read: Paizil) material.

Let me know when that slippery slope gives way and you fall to your death.

Translation: I completely misunderstand what people are saying, and so am going to stop making real replies. Also, I think Mongrelfolk and/or Dragonborn are Dragon material for some reason?

Hi Welcome

I was referring to the fucking ooze half Gelatinous Cube or whatever the fuck it was. Don't be a dumbfuck, as my intentions were very obvious.

Also, funny story - without any apparent coordination on their part, I recently got a group where:

EVERYONE is human. Well, except the familiar. Only one of them is a variation on the PHB human, the others are stock standard.
All of the party, except one person is a Cha based Arcane spellcaster. Specifically, two Sorcerers, a Warmage (houseruled to not blow goats for pocket change) and a Beguiler.
The one guy who is a melee is a tele pouncer but is otherwise rather normal.

This doesn't really mean anything to this argument, I just found it amusing.
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Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Complete Warrior is the worst thing to happen to 3.5.
« Reply #217 on: January 09, 2011, 08:04:53 PM »
Reflavoring? Is that what you're suggesting? Get the benefits of being completly non standard and non of the drawbacks?
Nope, that's the default flavor.

Unless you're arguing that all campaign settings are by default full of racist dudes, and furthermore said racist dudes are racist against the particular group you're a member of. 
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Midnight_v

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Re: Complete Warrior is the worst thing to happen to 3.5.
« Reply #218 on: January 09, 2011, 08:32:21 PM »
Reflavoring? Is that what you're suggesting? Get the benefits of being completly non standard and non of the drawbacks?
Nope, that's the default flavor.

Unless you're arguing that all campaign settings are by default full of racist dudes, and furthermore said racist dudes are racist against the particular group you're a member of. 
No. I'm not arguing with you at all. I'm simply stating my opinion on this one.
Unless the population of this world is a large amount of "dragon men" people are gonna be like "What the fuck" when they see one because he looks like the thing that ate Bobs livestock. I mean am I thinking of the wrong thing? I could be cause all that dragon fap shit gets confusing. Are we talking like "frostblood orc" or is that the Bahamut afterbirth one? I assume the one that looks like a dragon pwned your mom.
So in a way yeah, fuck yeah, At SOME point there's gonna be a certain amount of xenophobia.
 You can make your campaign accept whatever the fuck you want, but as a baseline the "Dragonborn lesser ice/ooze paragenasi." is a non starter.

Quote
Unless you're arguing that all campaign settings are by default full of racist dudes, and furthermore said racist dudes are racist against the particular group you're a member of.   
Needless hyperbole aside, there has to be a better way to prove the hit point argument. All of this is one big red herring.
I'd say the Toughest a pc will be without resorting with shennanigans is...
Dwarf +2 con, 4 statbumps in life~+6 con item. Even if you say at level 1 pt buy give you an 18 and you add the + ability bonus for 4 statbumps that matter. and +3 from your plus 6 item AND make it a barb.
You'll do well to get barbarian hp @ 20 135? + 140 Even if I give you a nod and say + 8, it still only 20 extra so...
maybe 295 (315 with imptoughness)?
So 300 is doable... oppurtunity cost could be high though.
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Bloody Initiate

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Re: Complete Warrior is the worst thing to happen to 3.5.
« Reply #219 on: January 09, 2011, 09:25:19 PM »
So in a way yeah, fuck yeah, At SOME point there's gonna be a certain amount of xenophobia.

While I see where you're coming from, D&D assumes a lot of that shit gets ignored from the start. You might have a neighbor who is a chain-smoking old hag with claw-like hands, but what if she ACTUALLY HAD CLAWS? In D&D people supposedly treat half-orcs like shit because of their heritage, but they still know what a half-orc is and deal with them regularly. I also haven't seen many DMs bother with racial prejudices in their campaigns for no other reason than they didn't want to distract from the story they wanted to tell (Which had nothing to do with racial prejudices). The racial differences and prejudices are no doubt used by

What you end up with is a world where xenophobia is very watered down, because it's not based on stupid prejudices, it's based on who REALLY WILL eat you. I'm visiting my GF in bumfuck West Virginia right now. Racism is obvious and very present. However it's because they're a bunch of fucking retarded rednecks, not because they ever had a tribe of African Americans raid their farms, raping women and killing men + children.

In D&D Orcs do that shit, and that's why people give Half-orcs a hard time.

Little farming communities in D&D also invite heavily-armed strangers into their home because they're MORE afraid of the shit that's been raiding their farms. Those heavily-armed strangers are adventurers, and they're officially "not the norm."

So if you had your daughter abducted by a bestial pig-faced motherfucker who smelled like a corpse, would you insist on finding someone "normal" looking to rescue her or would you recruit the first badass who looked willing? If some bastard with a dragon's head said "Hey man, I'll go kill that fucker and save your daughter, I'm a follower of Bahamut" and you KNEW about Bahamut (because you're a citizen of the D&D world) AND this guy had a perfectly trustworthy-looking friend who vouched for him (Perhaps a bard you know who sings occasionally at your local bar), would you slam your door in his face just because he's not getting anywhere with the ladies?

Furthermore, in areas where certain races are available, they're also usually kind of common. Warforged in Eberron are not looked on with HUGE extra suspicion because they're common enough in Eberron. People may still be uncomfortable with them, but they know about them. Dragonborn are actually similar, because it's a religious thing and probably related to a nearby cult or temple of Bahamut. So while they may not be welcomed with open arms, people look at them and say "ewww another one of those Bahamut freaks that did that stupid egg ritual."

Mormons on the other hand... those get the door slammed in their face.

I really do see your point, and I think it's very valid especially if you're making PCs who are uglier than the villains, but at the same time D&D people aren't like real world people. They have different problems and are surrounded by much more varied other people, many of whom are hideously nasty bastards. It's just one of the speedbumps of making a world that's based on the real world while not being the real world.

I also think D&D people probably are better at judging people by their actions and not their race than real world people. Wizards engaged in a kind of idealism when they made the game. Women are generally considered perfectly equal to men, racial differences are biological rather than aesthetic, and people are judged based on real things that happen rather than just prejudices that formed out of nowhere (See: An orc tribe killed my parents, so now I'm uneasy around anything that resembles them).
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