Author Topic: Complete Warrior is the worst thing to happen to 3.5.  (Read 43241 times)

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Kajhera

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Re: Complete Warrior is the worst thing to happen to 3.5.
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2010, 01:31:39 PM »
Wait, people use Warshaper for things other than changelings?

Wildshape Ranger.

Ah, we almost always only take one level in that. Not sure why. But that sounds a pleasant use as well.

Havok4

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Re: Complete Warrior is the worst thing to happen to 3.5.
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2010, 03:22:56 PM »
Wait, people use Warshaper for things other than changelings?

Wildshape Ranger.

Ah, we almost always only take one level in that. Not sure why. But that sounds a pleasant use as well.

Also wild shape builds that rely on shapeshifter (OA with the dragon update) as it has wild shape hd equal to your hd so warshaped does not hurt as much.

wotmaniac

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Re: Complete Warrior is the worst thing to happen to 3.5.
« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2010, 02:20:25 PM »
This is a thread about how Complete Warrior not only did not give Fighters nice things, but actually took them away.
I'm guessing this is your thesis?  
Aside from the abuse of hyperbole, let's see what we've got:

Quote
FB: Has a feature that, by strict RAW does nothing, and oh yeah the whole party has to be built around you just so you aren't a liability.
not sure what "does nothing"; but as to the rest ....
... having a secondary support character (i.e., half-elf bard ... you know, the class that they're actually good at) use a multiple-use ability or having to buy a wand of grease is a far cry from "the whole party has to be built around you".

Quote
Dervish: The entire class is inferior to Lion Barb 1, and it has a class feature that hinders you. Fail.
hmmm ... a lion barb 1 gets to move twice his speed and get .... 1 attack. oh, and has a BAB of 1.  and 15-ish HP. and ....
OHHHhh -- I see what you mean.  Okay, let's fast forward to 16th level.  well, you know what they do ... it all depends on the situation, really.
Never mind that you have cherry-picked the one ACF that is an epic fucking feat on steroids.  OH, so that whole PrC must suck donkey balls. :eh
also, what class feature hinders you?

Quote
Master thrower: Kinda sorta makes throwing weapons stop sucking a barrel of cocks. Which is a long way away from actually making them good.
So you admit that it is an improvement.  How does that not completely contradict your thesis?

Quote
Also, Wild shape builds? Aside from that bit about "Don't multiclass out of Druid, you fucking noob." Yeah.
aside from the ranger mention earlier; let's look at the context:
CW was put out as a supplement for martial characters.  
Druid 20 is a caster build regardless of where your focus is -- so again with the apples-and-oranges thing.
A pure wildshape build is a martial character .... not only that, but it's probably one of the strongest martial options available.

While there isn't a lot for "fighters" specifically, a lot of the options can indeed improve that particular class.  And the one class that is pretty much exclusively for fighters does actually give you options that are improvements to what you could normally do (and doesn't require a lot of investment).

The book, while didn't save the fighter, it didn't take anything away from him either (if so, as you claim, then what?).  Additionally, the book was for martially-oriented characters in general -- for which there are all kinds of cool stuff.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2010, 02:22:37 PM by wotmaniac »

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

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RelentlessImp

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Re: Complete Warrior is the worst thing to happen to 3.5.
« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2010, 02:33:16 PM »
hmmm ... a lion barb 1 gets to move twice his speed and get .... 1 attack. oh, and has a BAB of 1.  and 15-ish HP. and ....
OHHHhh -- I see what you mean.  Okay, let's fast forward to 16th level.  well, you know what they do ... it all depends on the situation, really.
Never mind that you have cherry-picked the one ACF that is an epic fucking feat on steroids.  OH, so that whole PrC must suck donkey balls. :eh
also, what class feature hinders you?
Pounce: No limitations, except being able to Charge.
Dervish Dance: Slashing weapons only, move 5' between each attack, can't do it while under the effects of Rage or Frenzy, once per encounter, lasts 1 round/2 ranks in Perform (dance), fatigued the rest of the encounter. Limitation on armor that can be worn (light or none).

So aside from saying "Fuck You" to one of the better ways of increasing your capability in combat and synergizing with none of the rest (Leap Attack, et al.), Dervish Dance is a subpar ability in comparison to just getting Pounce.
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archangel.arcanis

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Re: Complete Warrior is the worst thing to happen to 3.5.
« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2010, 02:34:58 PM »
You know this thread along with others has lead me to believe Sunic has an obsession with barrels of cocks and donkey nuts.

A bit more on topic. As Wotmaniac has already said please elaborate on the fail in those specific cases. I'm sure some are true but if you are going to make an assertion you should at least explain it enough for people who may not have looked at it have a clue what you're talking about.
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Bauglir

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Re: Complete Warrior is the worst thing to happen to 3.5.
« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2010, 03:50:14 PM »
I will say that the mental image of Sunic's avatar chasing a weredonkey cockbarrel is entertaining.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

RobbyPants

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Re: Complete Warrior is the worst thing to happen to 3.5.
« Reply #26 on: November 10, 2010, 03:56:26 PM »
Quote
Master thrower: Kinda sorta makes throwing weapons stop sucking a barrel of cocks. Which is a long way away from actually making them good.
So you admit that it is an improvement.  How does that not completely contradict your thesis?
Well, the book as a whole nerfs fighters, so Master Thrower being kinda cool doesn't salvage it.  I mean, yeah, his OP does have lots of hyperbole and broad generalizations in it (which aren't always right), but his main point still stands: Complete Warrior is a nerf to the bulk of the previously un-updated 3.0 material.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Bauglir

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Re: Complete Warrior is the worst thing to happen to 3.5.
« Reply #27 on: November 10, 2010, 03:57:20 PM »
Wouldn't that make it the worst thing to happen to 3.0?
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

RelentlessImp

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Re: Complete Warrior is the worst thing to happen to 3.5.
« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2010, 03:58:09 PM »
Wouldn't that make it the worst thing to happen to 3.0?

No, because unupdated 3.0 material is specifically 3.5.
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RobbyPants

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Re: Complete Warrior is the worst thing to happen to 3.5.
« Reply #29 on: November 10, 2010, 03:58:58 PM »
You know this thread along with others has lead me to believe Sunic has an obsession with barrels of cocks and donkey nuts.
The whole barrel of cocks thing was a pretty big meme at the Den about a year ago, the the point where I shopped a picture for it, but the whole thing kinda fell out of favor about that time.






What?  We're not talking about roosters?
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

RobbyPants

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Re: Complete Warrior is the worst thing to happen to 3.5.
« Reply #30 on: November 10, 2010, 04:01:55 PM »
Wouldn't that make it the worst thing to happen to 3.0?
Well, no.  3.5 had this crazy clause in it that any non-updated 3.0 material was still fair game...  or unless it was now obsolete.  It was kind of annoying, because if it wasn't updated, you had to use common sense to figure out if it was still valid or if it had no place in a 3.5 game.  Still, pre-2004, almost all of The Sword & The Fist was open for 3.5 use.  Then Complete Warrior came by and stealth-nerfed most of it out of existence.

And CW doesn't do jack to 3.0, because, well, it's a 3.5 book.  That's like saying the 4E PHB hurt 3.5. :p
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

altpersona

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Re: Complete Warrior is the worst thing to happen to 3.5.
« Reply #31 on: November 10, 2010, 04:16:17 PM »
ok, 4e hurt 3.5
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archangel.arcanis

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Re: Complete Warrior is the worst thing to happen to 3.5.
« Reply #32 on: November 10, 2010, 04:20:31 PM »
ok, 4e hurt 3.5
This is totally off topic. Altpersona you have a whole new level of respect from me. On a whim, mostly due to being board at work, I used my barcode scanner on your avatar. That is pure win there.
Clerics and Druids are like the 4 and 2 in 42. Together they are the answer to the ultimate question in D&D.
Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren

RobbyPants

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Re: Complete Warrior is the worst thing to happen to 3.5.
« Reply #33 on: November 10, 2010, 04:38:28 PM »
ok, 4e hurt 3.5
Not in the same way. :p  It's not so much of a stealth-nerf, as it's a fan-base-splitter.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

veekie

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Re: Complete Warrior is the worst thing to happen to 3.5.
« Reply #34 on: November 10, 2010, 06:01:53 PM »
ok, 4e hurt 3.5
This is totally off topic. Altpersona you have a whole new level of respect from me. On a whim, mostly due to being board at work, I used my barcode scanner on your avatar. That is pure win there.
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[spoiler]
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[/spoiler]

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archangel.arcanis

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Re: Complete Warrior is the worst thing to happen to 3.5.
« Reply #35 on: November 10, 2010, 06:07:10 PM »
ok, 4e hurt 3.5
This is totally off topic. Altpersona you have a whole new level of respect from me. On a whim, mostly due to being board at work, I used my barcode scanner on your avatar. That is pure win there.
What the hell IS it?
it translates to his website. Since it was on my smart phone with internet it asked if I wanted to go there.
Clerics and Druids are like the 4 and 2 in 42. Together they are the answer to the ultimate question in D&D.
Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Complete Warrior is the worst thing to happen to 3.5.
« Reply #36 on: November 10, 2010, 06:28:09 PM »
And CW doesn't do jack to 3.0, because, well, it's a 3.5 book.  That's like saying the 4E PHB hurt 3.5. :p
I beg to differ
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altpersona

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Re: Complete Warrior is the worst thing to happen to 3.5.
« Reply #37 on: November 10, 2010, 07:50:10 PM »
ya, thats how i roll
The goal of power is power. - idk
We are not descended from fearful men. - Murrow

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Anim-manga sux.


Sunic_Flames

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Re: Complete Warrior is the worst thing to happen to 3.5.
« Reply #38 on: November 11, 2010, 02:57:08 PM »
Going down the line again.

You obviously haven't been paying attention to the amount of ghost pimping that goes on by certain users.

Explain the relevance to the subject matter.

not sure what "does nothing"; but as to the rest ....
... having a secondary support character (i.e., half-elf bard ... you know, the class that they're actually good at) use a multiple-use ability or having to buy a wand of grease is a far cry from "the whole party has to be built around you".

Which means one of your good characters (and yes, a semi caster counts) has to set their actions on fire just to stop your own teammate from killing you.

As for the ability that does nothing, read Deathless Frenzy. Carefully. Then remember it only applies in a Frenzy. You know, that ability that inflicts the thing that still does work every round.

So here's what happens:

FB Frenzies, takes 2 non lethal damage. Then gets the fuck beat out of them. They can't die from this, but they still do get KOed from non lethal. And then the frenzy ends and they die anyways.

Quote
hmmm ... a lion barb 1 gets to move twice his speed and get .... 1 attack. oh, and has a BAB of 1.  and 15-ish HP. and ....
OHHHhh -- I see what you mean.  Okay, let's fast forward to 16th level.  well, you know what they do ... it all depends on the situation, really.
Never mind that you have cherry-picked the one ACF that is an epic fucking feat on steroids.  OH, so that whole PrC must suck donkey balls. :eh
also, what class feature hinders you?

The Lion Barb 1 is free to take 9 levels of something that actually helps him, doesn't have to set multiple feats and stat points on fire, and also gets the same effect sooner. As early as level 1 with Whirling Frenzy, otherwise 5 (Haste) or 6 (otherwise).

Also, epic feats are epic fail, and nothing else epic.

As for the ability that hinders you?

'Scimitars are always considered a light weapon for you'. That seems like a benefit because of TWF penalties, except no it fucking isn't because you can get the same thing cheaper via one of several means if you care (at least one of which is in the same damn book) and these things don't stop you from using Power Attack. As Power Attack directly equates to relevant DPS, and DPS is your sole purpose in life, taking Dervish means you fail at life. QED.

Quote
So you admit that it is an improvement.  How does that not completely contradict your thesis?

Don't be retarded and pull a Paizil. You know as well as I do that making something merely kinda sorta not suck doesn't make it playable. It does mean the gullible will be tricked into thinking it is.

Now if it did more, it might be worth a fuck. But since it doesn't it just tricks people into thinking that throwing daggers is a valid life choice.

Quote
The book, while didn't save the fighter, it didn't take anything away from him either (if so, as you claim, then what?).  Additionally, the book was for martially-oriented characters in general -- for which there are all kinds of cool stuff.

Fail.

If CW were never made, you could still use all the pre nerfed stuff in a standard game. Since it was, the fucking beatstick book was nothing but a bunch of stealth nerfs for beatsticks. And so far, all people have done to counteract that is to offer that it makes casters better.

You know this thread along with others has lead me to believe Sunic has an obsession with barrels of cocks and donkey nuts.

A bit more on topic. As Wotmaniac has already said please elaborate on the fail in those specific cases. I'm sure some are true but if you are going to make an assertion you should at least explain it enough for people who may not have looked at it have a clue what you're talking about.

Barrel of cocks is a standard Den phrase. The other remark isn't one I used.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2010, 02:59:51 PM by Sunic_Flames »
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Prime32

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Re: Complete Warrior is the worst thing to happen to 3.5.
« Reply #39 on: November 11, 2010, 03:01:49 PM »
You obviously haven't been paying attention to the amount of ghost pimping that goes on by certain users.

Explain the relevance to the subject matter.
Two levels of the ghost savage progression gives you (among other things*) at-will telekinesis, qualifying you for Master of the Unseen Hand.

I find it hilarious to surround yourself with a cloud of mundane weapons and cast brilliant aura somehow, gaining far more benefit than normal and also making it impossible to use the weapons against you. Alternatively, this is one of the rare builds where Vow of Poverty would be viable (since the alternative is buying enormous numbers of magical weapons, and you have flight/immunities already)

*Ethereality/incorporeality and flight, can't have equipment stolen, lose Con but increase all HD to d12s, +2 Cha, +2 Hide/Listen/Search/Spot, +2 turn resistance
« Last Edit: November 11, 2010, 03:26:40 PM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]