Author Topic: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?  (Read 14076 times)

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Endarire

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What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« on: November 06, 2010, 10:37:23 AM »
I know what SR does, or at least, should do, which is block spells.

There are so many ways to bypass or negate SR that SR, especially beatable SR, seems like a waste.

Seemingly, the main reason SR exists is to hamper blasters, but even some boom spells like orb of fire don't check SR.

What is your take on this?
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Empirate

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2010, 12:21:08 PM »

Most damaging spells are blocked by SR, as are most direct save-or-dies/save-or-sucks. Taking a look just at Core spells beginning with an 'F' (for no particular reason): Fear, Feeblemind, Finger of Death, Flesh to Stone... all blocked by SR. These are neither exceedingly rare nor particularly unimpressive spells. Seems SR can really do some good things for you.

Look at it this way:
We know Conjuration is the best school - because it doesn't allow SR on many of its spells.
We know battlefield control is the most reliable way to contribute by casting spells - among other things, because SR doesn't help against it much of the time.


Sunic_Flames

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2010, 02:15:55 PM »
I know what SR does, or at least, should do, which is block spells.

There are so many ways to bypass or negate SR that SR, especially beatable SR, seems like a waste.

Seemingly, the main reason SR exists is to hamper blasters, but even some boom spells like orb of fire don't check SR.

What is your take on this?

That SR is a joke stat that should be disregarded. It doesn't play any real role in the power of a creature despite how common it is (seriously, 90% of creatures CR 13 and higher have SR in core) and if a creatures power is primarily based on having it (Drow) they end up incredibly weak, just like anyone else who got burdened with an overpriced feature (full BAB being the other big one, but that is outside the scope of this topic).

It is even detrimental to the user, as it can block beneficial spells cast on you by anyone other than you, unless you waste your whole round to not be hindered by the beneficial thing you're paying a significant cost for.

Just keep in mind that anything whose cost is primarily based on the assumption SR is worth a damn will need considerable buffing. If they just have it (most monsters) then leave them alone, no need to change anything.
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Ramaloke

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2010, 02:58:18 PM »
As far as I can tell SRs main point is to prevent a bunch of low level mook wizards from ganking you with magic missile.  :twitch :twitch

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2010, 03:01:46 PM »
As far as I can tell SRs main point is to prevent a bunch of low level mook wizards from ganking you with magic missile.  :twitch :twitch

Seriously.

Right. So they do it with Lesser Orb of Sound instead. Because seriously, who's got resistance to sonic damage? It never comes up. [Sonic] affects, sure, but not Sonic damage.
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ImmortalSoul

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2010, 03:20:49 PM »
Aren't there some monsters like the hangman golem that are "immun to any magic that allows SR"?

Other than that I don't know, it probably depends on the campaigns you play in. Our last wizard felt that Assay Spell Resistance and the like were a total waste and thus failed hurting a dragon we encountered. Didn't change his mind afterwards, either.
If your group composition is healer/tank/skillmonkey/blaster, SR can definately limit them, mainly depending on their spellchoices. Some people just won't take anything that doesn't do damage.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2010, 03:40:23 PM »
Aren't there some monsters like the hangman golem that are "immun to any magic that allows SR"?

Other than that I don't know, it probably depends on the campaigns you play in. Our last wizard felt that Assay Spell Resistance and the like were a total waste and thus failed hurting a dragon we encountered. Didn't change his mind afterwards, either.
If your group composition is healer/tank/skillmonkey/blaster, SR can definately limit them, mainly depending on their spellchoices. Some people just won't take anything that doesn't do damage.

This is true, but that's a separate factor. Namely, the reason why golems are actually weak to magic. Which is more a weakness of the Construct type than anything else.

But SR only blocks the spells that are fucked anyways. There's a reason why I addressed that in my house rules thread.
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Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

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Necrosnoop110

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2010, 04:30:38 PM »
This is true, but that's a separate factor. Namely, the reason why golems are actually weak to magic. Which is more a weakness of the Construct type than anything else.

But SR only blocks the spells that are fucked anyways. There's a reason why I addressed that in my house rules thread.
1) Explain that bit about "golems are actually weak to magic"? That's blowing my mind.
2) Can you post a link to your house rules thread?

Thanks,
Necro

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2010, 05:01:07 PM »
This is true, but that's a separate factor. Namely, the reason why golems are actually weak to magic. Which is more a weakness of the Construct type than anything else.

But SR only blocks the spells that are fucked anyways. There's a reason why I addressed that in my house rules thread.
1) Explain that bit about "golems are actually weak to magic"? That's blowing my mind.
2) Can you post a link to your house rules thread?

Thanks,
Necro

Most people see the words "Magic Immunity" and logically conclude that makes golems immune to magic. A reasonable conclusion. But if you actually read the definition of the ability, what it actually says is that golems are immune to all spells that allow SR, with a handful of exceptions specified. Which means it's a gigantic misnomer.

What it actually means is that golems effectively have infinite SR, with a few exceptions. Of course, SR is a joke, so even having an infinite amount of it is still a joke. Consequently you cast SR: No spells, of which there are plenty. Now check their save lines. See how terrible they are?

"Golems are weak to magic."

QED.

Also...

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9826.0
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

BeholderSlayer

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2010, 05:14:50 PM »
Yeah, basically toss up a Glitterdust and laugh at golems as they utterly fail, almost every single time. The only golem with a remotely decent will save listed in the MMI is the Greater Stone Golem (CR 16), at +14. Everything else from CR 7 to 11 (maybe more) has a +3 or +4. At level 16, the golem's inability to fly takes over and makes it an enemy to be completely ignored.
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Necrosnoop110

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2010, 05:50:16 PM »
This is true, but that's a separate factor. Namely, the reason why golems are actually weak to magic. Which is more a weakness of the Construct type than anything else.

But SR only blocks the spells that are fucked anyways. There's a reason why I addressed that in my house rules thread.
1) Explain that bit about "golems are actually weak to magic"? That's blowing my mind.
2) Can you post a link to your house rules thread?

Thanks,
Necro

Most people see the words "Magic Immunity" and logically conclude that makes golems immune to magic. A reasonable conclusion. But if you actually read the definition of the ability, what it actually says is that golems are immune to all spells that allow SR, with a handful of exceptions specified. Which means it's a gigantic misnomer.

What it actually means is that golems effectively have infinite SR, with a few exceptions. Of course, SR is a joke, so even having an infinite amount of it is still a joke. Consequently you cast SR: No spells, of which there are plenty. Now check their save lines. See how terrible they are?

"Golems are weak to magic."

QED.

Also...

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9826.0
I know how SR works, I wasn't asking that. And what you say is largely technically true but I just don't see "Golems are weak to magic" as a proper conclusion to what you are saying. Being effectively immune to half the spells in the game and having "standard" resistances to the rest doesn't seem weak at all to me. I'm not saying that golems are unbeatable or should be considered the creatures MOST resistant to magic in the game but weak? Where's the weakness?

Oh and thanks for the link I'm stealing some of those houerules for my game. Well done. :)

Peace,
Necro

Sunic_Flames

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2010, 06:00:08 PM »
This is true, but that's a separate factor. Namely, the reason why golems are actually weak to magic. Which is more a weakness of the Construct type than anything else.

But SR only blocks the spells that are fucked anyways. There's a reason why I addressed that in my house rules thread.
1) Explain that bit about "golems are actually weak to magic"? That's blowing my mind.
2) Can you post a link to your house rules thread?

Thanks,
Necro

Most people see the words "Magic Immunity" and logically conclude that makes golems immune to magic. A reasonable conclusion. But if you actually read the definition of the ability, what it actually says is that golems are immune to all spells that allow SR, with a handful of exceptions specified. Which means it's a gigantic misnomer.

What it actually means is that golems effectively have infinite SR, with a few exceptions. Of course, SR is a joke, so even having an infinite amount of it is still a joke. Consequently you cast SR: No spells, of which there are plenty. Now check their save lines. See how terrible they are?

"Golems are weak to magic."

QED.

Also...

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9826.0
I know how SR works, I wasn't asking that. And what you say is largely technically true but I just don't see "Golems are weak to magic" as a proper conclusion to what you are saying. Being effectively immune to half the spells in the game and having "standard" resistances to the rest doesn't seem weak at all to me. I'm not saying that golems are unbeatable or should be considered the creatures MOST resistant to magic in the game but weak? Where's the weakness?

Oh and thanks for the link I'm stealing some of those houerules for my game. Well done. :)

Peace,
Necro

They have terrible saves. All of the good spells still work. What is difficult to understand?

To be good against magic they would need to have one of the following:

Immunity to ALL spells. Which is actually impossible, as even if they are immune to all direct spells you can still use spells indirectly.

High saves, not low saves.

They have neither of these things. So golems laugh at blasters a little harder than other encounters laugh at them. The competent casters do not care.

As for the house rules, they are selected both for their individual effects and their interactions with each other. As such they are not meant to be cherry picked. That will give you a train wreck. They are meant to be used together.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Bauglir

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2010, 06:15:53 PM »
Sunic, I think his point is that blanket immunity to a category of spells is a strict improvement from the normal situation. They aren't particularly weak to magic, except to the same extent Undead are (by virtue of shitty hit dice, which they tend to have lots of as a mitigating factor). That their immunity doesn't actually serve to PROTECT them very well doesn't mean it accomplishes the opposite.
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Necrosnoop110

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2010, 06:18:57 PM »
This is true, but that's a separate factor. Namely, the reason why golems are actually weak to magic. Which is more a weakness of the Construct type than anything else.

But SR only blocks the spells that are fucked anyways. There's a reason why I addressed that in my house rules thread.
1) Explain that bit about "golems are actually weak to magic"? That's blowing my mind.
2) Can you post a link to your house rules thread?

Thanks,
Necro

Most people see the words "Magic Immunity" and logically conclude that makes golems immune to magic. A reasonable conclusion. But if you actually read the definition of the ability, what it actually says is that golems are immune to all spells that allow SR, with a handful of exceptions specified. Which means it's a gigantic misnomer.

What it actually means is that golems effectively have infinite SR, with a few exceptions. Of course, SR is a joke, so even having an infinite amount of it is still a joke. Consequently you cast SR: No spells, of which there are plenty. Now check their save lines. See how terrible they are?

"Golems are weak to magic."

QED.

Also...

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9826.0
I know how SR works, I wasn't asking that. And what you say is largely technically true but I just don't see "Golems are weak to magic" as a proper conclusion to what you are saying. Being effectively immune to half the spells in the game and having "standard" resistances to the rest doesn't seem weak at all to me. I'm not saying that golems are unbeatable or should be considered the creatures MOST resistant to magic in the game but weak? Where's the weakness?

Oh and thanks for the link I'm stealing some of those houerules for my game. Well done. :)

Peace,
Necro

They have terrible saves. All of the good spells still work. What is difficult to understand?

To be good against magic they would need to have one of the following:

Immunity to ALL spells. Which is actually impossible, as even if they are immune to all direct spells you can still use spells indirectly.

High saves, not low saves.

They have neither of these things. So golems laugh at blasters a little harder than other encounters laugh at them. The competent casters do not care.

As for the house rules, they are selected both for their individual effects and their interactions with each other. As such they are not meant to be cherry picked. That will give you a train wreck. They are meant to be used together.
1) Yeah they do have weak saves I overlooked that. You do have a point. I wonder why that is the case. I look at the MMI table 4-1 and constructs have no good saves at all. I just assumed that their saves were appropriate for their "level." But it still is not the fault of SR that makes them weak, it is their odd lack of any sort of good saves. As you said, it's "more a weakness of the Construct type than anything else."  

2) As to your houserules I was trying to give you a complement. So you're telling me if if cherry pick "max HD at each level" and "If you have at least 4 BAB, you can Precise Shot with any ranged weapon you are proficient in and are treated as if you have the Point Blank Shot feat without actually taking it" my game will fall apart?

Peace,
Necro
« Last Edit: November 06, 2010, 06:26:36 PM by Necrosnoop110 »

raith0

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2010, 06:21:35 PM »
in Theory i believe that SR was ment to be the AC for the mage to deal with.  now that it comepletely fails due to many reasons is another thing all together.  

  

Kajhera

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2010, 06:23:08 PM »
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.

Apparently.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2010, 06:40:36 PM »
Sunic, I think his point is that blanket immunity to a category of spells is a strict improvement from the normal situation. They aren't particularly weak to magic, except to the same extent Undead are (by virtue of shitty hit dice, which they tend to have lots of as a mitigating factor). That their immunity doesn't actually serve to PROTECT them very well doesn't mean it accomplishes the opposite.

Undead have good Will saves, which is half the battle. They are also outright immune to many of the good spells. This includes the same spells that Constructs are immune to, but is not limited to them. Most undead are intelligent. This makes them immune to many more shutdowns.

Seeing a golem at any level provokes the following response: "Cute, I cast Silent Image/Obscuring Mist/Glitterdust from a throwaway slot, and auto win. Now where's the nearby Wizard?"
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IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Sunic_Flames

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2010, 06:47:28 PM »
This is true, but that's a separate factor. Namely, the reason why golems are actually weak to magic. Which is more a weakness of the Construct type than anything else.

But SR only blocks the spells that are fucked anyways. There's a reason why I addressed that in my house rules thread.
1) Explain that bit about "golems are actually weak to magic"? That's blowing my mind.
2) Can you post a link to your house rules thread?

Thanks,
Necro

Most people see the words "Magic Immunity" and logically conclude that makes golems immune to magic. A reasonable conclusion. But if you actually read the definition of the ability, what it actually says is that golems are immune to all spells that allow SR, with a handful of exceptions specified. Which means it's a gigantic misnomer.

What it actually means is that golems effectively have infinite SR, with a few exceptions. Of course, SR is a joke, so even having an infinite amount of it is still a joke. Consequently you cast SR: No spells, of which there are plenty. Now check their save lines. See how terrible they are?

"Golems are weak to magic."

QED.

Also...

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9826.0
I know how SR works, I wasn't asking that. And what you say is largely technically true but I just don't see "Golems are weak to magic" as a proper conclusion to what you are saying. Being effectively immune to half the spells in the game and having "standard" resistances to the rest doesn't seem weak at all to me. I'm not saying that golems are unbeatable or should be considered the creatures MOST resistant to magic in the game but weak? Where's the weakness?

Oh and thanks for the link I'm stealing some of those houerules for my game. Well done. :)

Peace,
Necro

They have terrible saves. All of the good spells still work. What is difficult to understand?

To be good against magic they would need to have one of the following:

Immunity to ALL spells. Which is actually impossible, as even if they are immune to all direct spells you can still use spells indirectly.

High saves, not low saves.

They have neither of these things. So golems laugh at blasters a little harder than other encounters laugh at them. The competent casters do not care.

As for the house rules, they are selected both for their individual effects and their interactions with each other. As such they are not meant to be cherry picked. That will give you a train wreck. They are meant to be used together.
1) Yeah they do have weak saves I overlooked that. You do have a point. I wonder why that is the case. I look at the MMI table 4-1 and constructs have no good saves at all. I just assumed that their saves were appropriate for their "level." But it still is not the fault of SR that makes them weak, it is their odd lack of any sort of good saves. As you said, it's "more a weakness of the Construct type than anything else."  

2) As to your houserules I was trying to give you a complement. So you're telling me if if cherry pick "max HD at each level" and "If you have at least 4 BAB, you can Precise Shot with any ranged weapon you are proficient in and are treated as if you have the Point Blank Shot feat without actually taking it" my game will fall apart?

Peace,
Necro

It is in a way. See, just as SR itself was massively overvalued anything based on it also is. The designers erroneously assumes infinite SR = Magic Immunity, without looking at their own spell lists. And keep in mind I'm assuming core only, so someone can't say some lie about non core being imbalanced. Had they not done this, you'd probably see the Construct type having some/all good saves. Though admittedly this still wouldn't help much. If you made it all good saves, a 12 HD construct gains +4 across the board. Still single digit numbers though. So still weak to magic. You wouldn't actually see good numbers until you got into HD advancement (Greater Stone Golem). In which case it would have 23, modified by stats across the board. That's good at the level. Doesn't change the fact every other golem is far too low.

I made that comment about the houserules to make you aware of it. In that specific instance you wouldn't break the game, but you also wouldn't do anything with it. Archers would still suck, they'd just not have a feat tax. Non casters would still suck, they'd just take a little longer to auto attack things, and things would take a little longer to auto attack them. Without the other buffs, all you've done is buff casters. Not doing enough to fix the problem does nothing but erroneously convince some people that you actually did fix it. Which means instead of removing the trap, you bait people into it. Such is the Paizil way. Don't pull a Paizil.

The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.

Apparently.

And healed. Don't forget that.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2010, 06:50:22 PM by Sunic_Flames »
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And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Necrosnoop110

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2010, 06:50:09 PM »
Who what is Paizil?

Sunic_Flames

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Re: What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?
« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2010, 06:52:02 PM »
Who what is Paizil?

Paizo + Fail. Used to refer to anyone who embodies the Paizo backasswards ideals. Namely these.

Standard Paizil Fare/Fail (SPF) Type I - doing exactly the opposite of what they said they would do.
Standard Paizil Fare/Fail (SPF) Type II - change for the sake of change.
Standard Paizil Fare/Fail (SPF) Type III - the illusion of change.
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]