Author Topic: Ardent Power Acquisition  (Read 2648 times)

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Necrosnoop110

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Ardent Power Acquisition
« on: November 04, 2010, 05:40:28 PM »
No matter how many times I've explained it to my group they seem to be unable to understand the, admittedly, confusing way in which Ardents gain powers. Anyone have or care to create a chart that might simplify things?

Thanks,
Necro

Bozwevial

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Re: Ardent Power Acquisition
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2010, 06:05:44 PM »
Is the power you're picking from a primary mantle?

Yes: You have nothing to worry about.

No: Keep reading.

Would this power leave you with more powers from a secondary mantle than a primary mantle, or is this the case already?

Yes: You can't pick that power. Pick one from another secondary mantle that won't push you over or one from a primary mantle.

No: You still have nothing to worry about.

Sohala

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Re: Ardent Power Acquisition
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2010, 06:18:13 PM »
Are you meaning the way that they go off manifester level?
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awaken DM golem

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Re: Ardent Power Acquisition
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2010, 06:54:37 PM »
Wow, Boz's answer is dead on.


The ML thingy would have to be the first exception ; requiring way waayyy more text (and logic) to understand.
Maybe a powerpoint ML to spell level CL "discussion" would to the trick? Maybe?

The Mind's Eye Update called Substitute Powers has any number of interpretations available to it.
The simplist and most obvious is: the 9 or 10 powers minus the ones it already has,
equals what # of powers get to be added, with a short confab with the DM.

At it's most expansive, the Sub Powers + having enough Mantles, makes powers selection
an anything you want type thing. Like with Mantled Wilders, the theme is make the Wilder not suck.
Divine Minds suck with or without Sub Powers, but they suck a little less with it.

Necrosnoop110

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Re: Ardent Power Acquisition
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2010, 07:14:34 PM »
Are you meaning the way that they go off manifester level?
Yes, and way the Ardent works with multiclassing. I think I'm getting myself confused now :banghead

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Necro

Bozwevial

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Re: Ardent Power Acquisition
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2010, 07:25:14 PM »
Hmm. So basically how you can't learn a power if you aren't capable of manifesting it?

If your ML is greater than or equal to ((the power's level*2)-1), you should be good.

Also, I'd like to add that the exception to the earlier post I made is if you have no other choice than to pick a power that violates the rule.

Necrosnoop110

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Re: Ardent Power Acquisition
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2010, 08:06:11 PM »
Here is the table for a standard Psion.

Power Points/Day
2
6
11
17
25
35
46
58
72
88
106
126
147
170
195
221
250
280
311
343
Powers Known
3
5
7
9
11
13
15
17
19
21
22
24
25
27
28
30
31
33
34
36
Maximum Power Level Known
1st
1st
2nd
2nd
3rd
3rd
4th
4th
5th
5th
6th
6th
7th
7th
8th
8th
9th
9th
9th
9th

What would that look like for an Ardent? Is this correct?

Power Points/Day
2
6
11
17
25
35
46
58
72
88
106
126
147
170
195
221
250
280
311
343
Powers Known
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
Maximum Power Level Known
1st
1st
2nd
2nd
3rd
3rd
4th
4th
5th
5th
6th
6th
7th
7th
8th
8th
9th
9th
9th
9th
« Last Edit: November 04, 2010, 08:15:25 PM by Necrosnoop110 »

Necrosnoop110

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Re: Ardent Power Acquisition
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2010, 08:14:53 PM »
Bozwevial,

I'm confused by every post you've made. I must be missing something. Please help.

Thanks,
Necro

Sohala

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Re: Ardent Power Acquisition
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2010, 08:34:18 PM »
Quote
((the power's level*2)-1)
Is the easy way to figure out how much a power costs by knowing its level. Level 1 = 1 pp, Level 2 = 3pp, etc. As is standard with psionic classes, you may only manifest powers with power point costs equal to or less than your manifester level, this restriction just happens to be the same way to figure out if an ardent can learn a power.

Imo your maximum power level known section for ardents should be separate from their level progression, if you make one. This way you do not confuse people when employing the practiced manifester feat.
"You think I'm talking about breaking the rules?"
"No I'm just trying to figure out how far you want them bent."
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Torgthen-The Darkening
Eldak-The Neverending Dungeon
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Town of Terror
Working Progress
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Necrosnoop110

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Re: Ardent Power Acquisition
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2010, 08:49:21 PM »
Imo your maximum power level known section for ardents should be separate from their level progression, if you make one. This way you do not confuse people when employing the practiced manifester feat.
But wouldn't the "effective manifester level" still follow the same "maximum power level known" schema even if it is out of sync with the class level? 

Sohala

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Re: Ardent Power Acquisition
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2010, 09:09:26 PM »
It would, but I was merely trying to add confusion of people thinking they get to look at the other two rows.
"You think I'm talking about breaking the rules?"
"No I'm just trying to figure out how far you want them bent."
[spoiler]
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Ixen-Elemental Mage Test Game
Torgthen-The Darkening
Eldak-The Neverending Dungeon
Games
Dungeon Delver's Delight
Adventures in Eberron
Town of Terror
Working Progress
[3.5] Mana Mage

Bozwevial

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Re: Ardent Power Acquisition
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2010, 11:10:14 PM »
So basically an Ardent 1/Rogue 4 with Practiced Manifester who takes another level of Ardent can pick up a 3rd level power, since his ML is 6. Saying that you have to be able to manifest the power in question is tantamount to saying that your manifester level has to equal the minimum cost of the power, because you can't spend more points on a single power than your manifester level.

Necrosnoop110

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Re: Ardent Power Acquisition
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2010, 12:07:39 AM »
So basically an Ardent 1/Rogue 4 with Practiced Manifester who takes another level of Ardent can pick up a 3rd level power, since his ML is 6. Saying that you have to be able to manifest the power in question is tantamount to saying that your manifester level has to equal the minimum cost of the power, because you can't spend more points on a single power than your manifester level.
I believe I understand that. Where I get lost is this stuff:

Is the power you're picking from a primary mantle?

Yes: You have nothing to worry about.

No: Keep reading.

Would this power leave you with more powers from a secondary mantle than a primary mantle, or is this the case already?

Yes: You can't pick that power. Pick one from another secondary mantle that won't push you over or one from a primary mantle.

No: You still have nothing to worry about.

Bozwevial

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Re: Ardent Power Acquisition
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2010, 12:12:40 AM »
Ardents can't have more powers from a secondary mantle than from either of their primary mantles. So if you have two powers known in each of your primary mantles and one in your secondary, you can learn another power from your secondary mantle, but you can't learn a second without learning one more in each of your primaries first.

Necrosnoop110

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Re: Ardent Power Acquisition
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2010, 12:15:35 AM »
Ardents can't have more powers from a secondary mantle than from either of their primary mantles. So if you have two powers known in each of your primary mantles and one in your secondary, you can learn another power from your secondary mantle, but you can't learn a second without learning one more in each of your primaries first.
Ahhhhh, Ok, now I see what you are saying. Thanks  :)

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Re: Ardent Power Acquisition
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2010, 04:13:21 PM »
The only exception to that would use Substitute Powers, and have a rather long conclave to figure out what exactly a DM wants to do.
And, you could probably fudge in the sub powers enough, that you basically are still playing by those rules.
(sounds complicated and inexact, because it is, and there's no real right-right answer)

I'm not sure what the soundbite and tight version of this "should" be:
Imo your maximum power level known section for ardents should be separate from their level progression, if you make one. This way you do not confuse people when employing the practiced manifester feat.
But wouldn't the "effective manifester level" still follow the same "maximum power level known" schema even if it is out of sync with the class level? 
The table you posted would work just fine in most games.
But really, wotc had years to post an errata'd table and didn't.
So the old psi-board and old CO-board interpretation, is still a possibility.

Must resist temptation to start about bloodlines and psiotheurgist feats.
Must ... resist ...  :(