Author Topic: Belt of Battle Revisited  (Read 9405 times)

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wotmaniac

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Belt of Battle Revisited
« on: November 03, 2010, 06:26:40 PM »
I just happen to notice something, and wanted to run it past you guys for consideration ...
Correct me if I'm wrong about this, but it is my understanding that the consensus interpretation of the 3-charge option for the Belt of Battle actually gives you another whole round worth of actions -- right?

Well, if that is the case, then I have to disagree.
The item's description actually says "1 full-round action" .... and I'd like to distinguish this from (presumably) "a full round of action"
Grammatically, what is written seems to explicitly articulate 1 single action that takes a full-round (as per the charts on p.141 and p.8, of the PHB and RC, respectively).  (obviously, if you use that action to further manipulate your action economy, then that would be something different -- e.g., spontaneously cast a metamagic'ed Time Stop ; etc.)

This would be different than a full round of action (or a full round worth of action ; or however you want to say it -- you get the idea), which could be as many as 3 distinct actions (plus whatever free actions get allowed, plus whatever other action-economy manipulation you can fit in).

So -- where (if at all) might I have gone wrong?
« Last Edit: November 03, 2010, 06:28:42 PM by wotmaniac »

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

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RobbyPants

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Re: Belt of Battle Revisited
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2010, 08:37:29 AM »
I don't have my book handy, but if it does mean a full round, then that would let you pull of Summons and the like, as well.
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Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
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[/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Belt of Battle Revisited
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2010, 09:15:40 AM »
This is the first time I've heard of someone using it for a whole round of actions...

Then again, making it an intelligent item is only sensible.
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wotmaniac

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Re: Belt of Battle Revisited
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2010, 09:34:31 AM »
I don't have my book handy, but if it does mean a full round, then that would let you pull of Summons and the like, as well.
yes, because that would be a single full-round action (of course, order of operations could get a little dicey -- could warrant a little discussion as well)


This is the first time I've heard of someone using it for a whole round of actions...
then I stand corrected on my perception/understanding of what the consensus is.
The thing is, I happen to run across the belt when looking for something else, and then decided to cross-reference some threads ... and the only thread/post that I knew for sure had a build that actually enumerated their actions with the Belt was over at my Magic Missile Optimization thread.  Since nobody called him out on it, I just assumed that it was correct (as I've never actually paid that close attention to the item ..... yeah, I know -- don't go there  :p)

Quote
Then again, making it an intelligent item is only sensible.
now that would be another situation entirely (though, I'm sure that my original thesis would still apply; just that now the item itself could decided when to activate it)

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

RobbyPants

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Re: Belt of Battle Revisited
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2010, 10:20:11 AM »
Well, if that is the case, then I have to disagree.
The item's description actually says "1 full-round action" .... and I'd like to distinguish this from (presumably) "a full round of action"
Grammatically, what is written seems to explicitly articulate 1 single action that takes a full-round (as per the charts on p.141 and p.8, of the PHB and RC, respectively).  (obviously, if you use that action to further manipulate your action economy, then that would be something different -- e.g., spontaneously cast a metamagic'ed Time Stop ; etc.)

This would be different than a full round of action (or a full round worth of action ; or however you want to say it -- you get the idea), which could be as many as 3 distinct actions (plus whatever free actions get allowed, plus whatever other action-economy manipulation you can fit in).
I read the actual entry in the MIC last night, and it simply says a "full-round action".  Literally, that means a full-round action and nothing more.  No extra swift action.  No entire round actions.

So you could use it to get a full attack, or have a spontaneous caster cast a spell with a metamagic feat applied, or charge, or something.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

wotmaniac

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Re: Belt of Battle Revisited
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2010, 09:48:15 PM »
Duly noted.
Evidently, I mis-perceived what the "consensus" was (the origins of which I already described).  My bad. (I guess I should pay more attention to stuff :))


oh, it actually says "1 full-round action" ; not just "full-round action" .... see the difference?  :p (sorry, I just couldn't resist)

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

Agita

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Re: Belt of Battle Revisited
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2010, 10:01:59 PM »
oh, it actually says "1 full-round action" ; not just "full-round action" .... see the difference?  :p (sorry, I just couldn't resist)
...No. :p Grammatically speaking, even without a numeral in front of it, if the word itself is in the singular, that kind of implies it's one, no?

Anyway, yeah, "one full-round action" makes sense, and is what I've always interpreted it as being. It's also in line with the belt's other effects  - a move action for one charge, a standard action for two, and essentially a combination of the two (although you can only move and attack if you charge) for three.
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Mixster

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Re: Belt of Battle Revisited
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2010, 06:31:06 PM »
Simply put I disagree.
A full-round action is the same as a full-round worth of actions IMO. Getting a full-round more gives you another round of acting, IE one move action more, one standard action more and one swift action more.

Off course one should always have it as an intelligent item so it activates itself.
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wotmaniac

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Re: Belt of Battle Revisited
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2010, 06:38:34 PM »
As written, it's a grammar issue.  But the definition(s) is pretty clear.
go to the list of full-round actions on pg.8 of RC (or PHB p.141 for a shorter list) -- you get 1 of those.  that's what "1 full-round action" means.

"1 full-round action" is a very different thing than "a full round's worth of actions".
Definitionally, 1 means just what I said above.  The other covers a much wider array of options.

Okay, it activates itself ..... to a single (1) full-round action.

But feel free to articulate support for your position. (sorry, but "IMO" doesn't cut it in the face of the arguments already presented)

(btw -- I really am sorry if that came across as rude/condescending ... that's really not my intent, and I'm at a loss for how else to phrase it and still get my point across)
« Last Edit: November 09, 2010, 06:43:40 PM by wotmaniac »

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

RobbyPants

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Re: Belt of Battle Revisited
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2010, 09:48:45 AM »
Simply put I disagree.
A full-round action is the same as a full-round worth of actions IMO. Getting a full-round more gives you another round of acting, IE one move action more, one standard action more and one swift action more.

Off course one should always have it as an intelligent item so it activates itself.
Sorry, but this is what a full-round action is.  No swifts in there.  A "full-round action" is a very specifically defined thing in terms of 3.x D&D.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

skydragonknight

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Re: Belt of Battle Revisited
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2010, 10:07:15 AM »
Ha! Interesting. Though, technically speaking, you can still get a single attack followed by a move action under Robbypant's link (starting, then cancelling a full attack).
« Last Edit: November 10, 2010, 10:10:54 AM by skydragonknight »
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RobbyPants

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Re: Belt of Battle Revisited
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2010, 11:17:46 AM »
Looks like that would work by RAW.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]