Author Topic: Swiftus Maximus: The Chronal Crusader (new build)  (Read 2695 times)

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Caelic

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Swiftus Maximus: The Chronal Crusader (new build)
« on: November 01, 2010, 10:17:36 PM »
Well...hmm.  Let's see if we can make this work.

Although Swiftblade builds are overwhelmingly arcane, I don't see anything in the requirements that says they have to be arcane.  It's just that most divine casters can't swing Haste in all their third level spell slots.    So let's see what we can do with a strongly martial divine-powered Swiftblade.

Human

Stat Priority: Charisma, Constitution, Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence, Wisdom

1. Crusader 1: Furious Counterstrike, Steely Resolve 5, Magical Training, Power Attack
2. Paladin 1: Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil 1/day
3. Paladin 2: Divine Grace, Lay on Hands, Dodge
4. Paladin 3: Aura of Courage, Divine Health
5. Paladin 4: Turn Undead
6. Crusader 2: Divine Might, Indomitable Soul
7. Crusader 3: Zealous Surge
8. Divine Crusader 1: Domain (Time,) Aura, Improved Initiative
9. Divine Crusader 2: Mobility
10. Divine Crusader 3: Resistance to Electricity 5
11. Swiftblade 1: Spring Attack, swift surge +1/+0 ft.
12. Swiftblade 2: Blurred alacrity, Feat
13. Swiftblade 3: Sudden casting
14. Swiftblade 4: Arcane reflexes, swift surge +1/+10 ft.
15. Swiftblade 5: Evasive celerity, Feat
16. Swiftblade 6: Fortified hustle
17. Swiftblade 7: Bounding Assault, swift surge +2/+10 ft.
18. Swiftblade 8: Diligent rapidity, Feat
19. Swiftblade 9: Perpetual options
20: Swiftblade 10: Innervated speed, swift surge +2/+20 ft.


BAB: +19
Fort: +13
Ref: +10
Will: +12


PROS: Swiftus has formidable Charisma synergy--Divine Grace, Charisma-based divine spellcasting, Charisma to Initiative (Magical Training provides me with the ability to cast three 0-level arcane spells as a sorceror--I look at it as a much-better Improved Initiative that doesn't pay off until 14th level,) and Divine Might.  Unlike most Swiftblade builds, he has both Innervated Speed AND ninth level spell slots; the six levels of caster advancement provided by Swiftblade is just enough to get him to 9th level Divine Crusader spellcasting.  His saves and BAB are extremely strong.


CONS: Well, let's acknowledge the biggie: Swiftus is going to be casting Haste and Time Stop and that's about it.  Most of his other domain spells simply aren't useful to him. It'll be nice to have a Contingent haste, and the True Strikes and Foresight should come in handy.  He may even throw a Legend Lore now and then, but his level 4, 5, and 6 slots are going to be almost exclusively tied up with Haste spells.  The Swiftblade d6's for hit dice make me a little flimsier than most Crusaders.  


REFINEMENTS: Taking the Holy Warrior ACF from Complete Champion would allow me to swap the single Paladin spell slot for a feat, but there aren't a lot of juicy ones on the list--something to consider.  


QUESTIONS:  Here's the part where I'd really like suggestions.

1. What feats would best round the character out at 12th, 15th, and 18th level?
2. What maneuvers should I take?  (I'm NOT a Bo9S guru, so I could use significant help here.)
3. Is there a one or two-level dip prestige class I could stick in around 9th level to get a bonus domain and make Swiftus' spell selection a little more versatile?


Any feedback is appreciated!
« Last Edit: November 01, 2010, 10:19:29 PM by Caelic »

KellKheraptis

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Re: Swiftus Maximus: The Chronal Crusader (new build)
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2010, 10:25:14 PM »
Caelic, did you peek at my Swiftblade using Divine Crusader at all in the Swiftblade Handbook here?  It got 9's, Innervated Speed, and the full Sor/Wiz list from Sword of the Arcane Order.  And with 4 levels of Mystic Ranger, plus PrC Paladin on Divine Crusader, could apply its benefits to either, as the 4th level paladin/ranger requirement is only for getting the feat, and the DC slots are also pally slots from that point on after taking PrC Paladin.  Cheesy, but what'd you expect?  :P

Also, is there a way to sub in Harmonious Knight and Song of the White Raven?  Inspire Courage and/or DFI on a Swiftblade would be sexy.
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Caelic

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Re: Swiftus Maximus: The Chronal Crusader (new build)
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2010, 10:44:09 PM »
Caelic, did you peek at my Swiftblade using Divine Crusader at all in the Swiftblade Handbook here?  It got 9's, Innervated Speed, and the full Sor/Wiz list from Sword of the Arcane Order.  And with 4 levels of Mystic Ranger, plus PrC Paladin on Divine Crusader, could apply its benefits to either, as the 4th level paladin/ranger requirement is only for getting the feat, and the DC slots are also pally slots from that point on after taking PrC Paladin.  Cheesy, but what'd you expect?  :P

Also, is there a way to sub in Harmonious Knight and Song of the White Raven?  Inspire Courage and/or DFI on a Swiftblade would be sexy.


Actually, I didn't see it--my bad for not looking in more depth.    I thought long and hard about Prestige Paladin, but I shied away, simply because it opens up a can of worms.  (Does it make all of your Divine Crusader spell slots "Paladin spell slots?"  Can you use Battle Blessing to quicken them?)

I wanted to steer clear of relying on interpretations that could be controversial, and I think you'll agree that using SoTAO in conjunction with Prestige Paladin is going to be controversial, to say the least. :)

Your build's an impressive piece of theorycraft--a HECK of a lot more powerful than mine--and I should've known someone else had explored this route before, but I'd like to see what can be done with Crusader, and maybe see if I can make a less-formidable build that would be accepted in more campaigns.  In particular, I'd like to see what can be done with multiple standard-action maneuvers in a single round.

I also thought about going for Bard synergy, but I'd really want Initiate of Milil to max that out, and Milil doesn't have the Time domain.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2010, 10:47:51 PM by Caelic »

vilenatas

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Re: Swiftus Maximus: The Chronal Crusader (new build)
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2010, 10:51:11 PM »
The reason Khell went with SoTAO was so he could say the DC casting was arcane and still advance it with swiftblade.  Swiftblade has in the spellcasting entry that it only advances arcane casting.  Is it reasonable to allow it to advance all casting, probably, but from the description it only advances arcane.

KellKheraptis

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Re: Swiftus Maximus: The Chronal Crusader (new build)
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2010, 10:53:36 PM »
In that case, Arcane Disciple (Spell) should be your first stop.  You have nothing but domain slots, so snag every 5th level and lower Sor/Wiz spell there is.  Also, not going SotAO means you've definitely got the slots for another trick or two, be it DFI optimization, Persistent spells, or damage sinks like Leap Attack and Hood friends.  Really, you could do several separate builds, and if you'd like I can dig mine up and post it as the "NC-17 Arcane Hood from Hell" :P  Might as well be comprehensive, after all.

EDIT : Partially true, vilenatas, as it also made it basically an exalted sorc with WAY better saves and BAB.  Not to mention IIRC I capped it with AC, so as to make up lost CL?  Gotta dig that puppy up now...
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Caelic

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Re: Swiftus Maximus: The Chronal Crusader (new build)
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2010, 10:55:40 PM »
You know, I overlooked that?  I must be tired.

Okay, my build doesn't work.  Kell's works if the DM is willing to give a good amount of leeway on the interpretation of SoTAO.

Of course, if the DM is willing to consider that build in any way, shape, or form, then he's unlikely to quibble over the interpretation of the feat. ;)

Endarire

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Re: Swiftus Maximus: The Chronal Crusader (new build)
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2010, 11:03:57 PM »
Kell, where's this build you mentioned?
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

Caelic

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Re: Swiftus Maximus: The Chronal Crusader (new build)
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2010, 11:08:26 PM »
I wonder, though: would it be possible to create a modified version of yours that incorporated some Crusader?  (I'm wondering exactly what could be done with White Raven tactics and extra standard actions every round.)

I'd also be curious to see if we can do it without Planar Touchstones; in my experience, a lot of DMs balk at them.

How about:

Crusader 1/Paladin 4/Crusader 2-3/Divine Champion 2/Prestige Paladin 1/Swiftblade 10?


It'd be sort of feat-starved, and it loses all the Abjurant Champion goodness, but on the flip side about the only iffy things you need to get past the DM are SoTAO and the Pally/Prestige Pally thing--and the build gets Divine Grace, which I don't think yours actually got.



KellKheraptis

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Re: Swiftus Maximus: The Chronal Crusader (new build)
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2010, 11:26:35 PM »
I went and looked at mine, and it qualifies with the Dragonblood Pool trick, then self-sustains either through SotAO or Alternate Source Spell (which ironically also self-qualifies should you let the Pool lapse).
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vilenatas

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Re: Swiftus Maximus: The Chronal Crusader (new build)
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2010, 11:29:47 PM »
Ranger4/Knight of the Raven2/Crusader1/DivineCrusader1/KnightRaven+1/Prestige Pal1/Swift10.  Since it says if you are going to have prestige paladin don't allow the base class I figured go ranger.  Getting turning came from Knight of the Raven to qualify for prestige paladin.  Only 1 level of crusader, and unless you give up swift 10 you don't get charisma to saves, but you get the sun domain for whatever that is worth.

KellKheraptis

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Re: Swiftus Maximus: The Chronal Crusader (new build)
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2010, 11:43:54 PM »
Here's the original, from page 3 of the Handbook, spoilered for space reasons.  Also, disregard the 20 BAB thing...only gets 19 :P

[spoiler]Mystic Ranger 4/Swiftblade 3/Divine Crusader 1/Prestige Paladin 1/Swiftblade 4-9/Abjurant Champion 5

We use the Dragonblood Pool trick with Sanctum Spell to snag haste, qualifying for Swiftblade, and at 6th level we take Sword of the Arcane Order.  It gets better though.  Since we already have the feat by the time we take PrC Pally, we get to add Sor/Wiz spells to any spell slot we have.  Further, if you'll note, we don't lose a single point of BAB, meaning our CL with the capstone of Abjurant Champion will be 20.  Full Wizard progression minus some higher level slots, absolutely fantastic gish potential, Int/Cha focus, and all the good stuff of Swiftblade, with 9th level spells off the best list.  We can even shore up some stuff and get better saves if we sub the Mystic Ranger at the beginning for Paladin, though that makes PrC Pally kinda dicy (most DM's will frown even more, since it's recommended that the base classes be unavailable with the PrC versions).  Planar Touchstone can pick up the Turning needed for PrC Pally without losing BAB on a dip, or Paladin gets it naturally if the DM is cool with that level of cheese.  Figured I'd throw the idea out there :D[/spoiler]

Now, I'm sure we can tweak this further, but Caelic wanted to avoid SotAO cheese.  My suggestion, given his 3 available feats, is take Arcane Disciple (Spell), Arcane Disciple (Trickery), and Arcane Disciple (Celerity).  This gives MDJ, Time Stop, and Miracle, among others (assuming I recall Celerity correctly) :)
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Catty Nebulart

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Re: Swiftus Maximus: The Chronal Crusader (new build)
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2010, 01:30:59 AM »
If you can get an adaptation of the Acetic Mage feat (Complete Adventurer) it might be worth picking up two levels of Swordsage, in light armor you would then get +Cha to AC. The feat would work as written but it would be a pain to qualify for (You need 2'nd level arcane spells, I would let divine crusader casting qualify).

Also the Swordsage levels would give you the weapon focus you currently lack. the problem is you would lose 1 BAB that you can't afford to lose... this is tricky.
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Phoenix00

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Re: Swiftus Maximus: The Chronal Crusader (new build)
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2010, 02:31:22 AM »
Just a heads up.
You need Turn Undead to get into Prestige Paladin (Knight of the Raven 3 easily gets this)

Ranger doesn't get Protection from Evil on its spell list thus you can't take Prestige Paladin on a ranger base (combine with Knight of the Raven)

Sword of the Arcane Order does fix getting Protection from Evil since it is on the Wiz/Sorc list.  If your dm rules that Sword of the Arcane Order Wiz/Sorc are arcane spells you are out of luck since Protection from Evil as a pre req for prestige paladin requires you casting it as a divine spell.

vilenatas

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Re: Swiftus Maximus: The Chronal Crusader (new build)
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2010, 02:38:54 AM »
Just a heads up.
You need Turn Undead to get into Prestige Paladin (Knight of the Raven 3 easily gets this)

Ranger doesn't get Protection from Evil on its spell list thus you can't take Prestige Paladin on a ranger base (combine with Knight of the Raven)

Sword of the Arcane Order does fix getting Protection from Evil since it is on the Wiz/Sorc list.  If your dm rules that Sword of the Arcane Order Wiz/Sorc are arcane spells you are out of luck since Protection from Evil as a pre req for prestige paladin requires you casting it as a divine spell.

I guess that means slipping in alternate source spell along the way.

Phoenix00

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Re: Swiftus Maximus: The Chronal Crusader (new build)
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2010, 02:53:40 AM »
I am looking at the spells per day and combining divine crusader+prestige paladin+sword of arcane order+swiftblade is kinda a late bloomer.  If your DM will allow you to enter with just mystic ranger and sword of arcane order, than a mystic ranger will have more spells per day until about level 15.  Just point this out.