Author Topic: Metamagic and You: A Thesis  (Read 175110 times)

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Bigtuna

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Re: Metamagic and You: A Thesis
« Reply #120 on: March 16, 2011, 02:45:20 PM »
I think there's some drugs in SoX that allow for metamagic as well (don't have my book's with me).
i think the price made them high level stuff, and if you stopped taking them there was some "minor" drawback, but ability dam is what a lvl of binder is for. :-)

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Metamagic and You: A Thesis
« Reply #121 on: March 16, 2011, 06:56:55 PM »

Actually, the per/day use limit is in KoKPG, not the errata.

"You may only use this ability on a number of spell levels equal to the ability score modifier appropriate to the type of spells you cast." It's also mentioned in the write-up.
Fair enough.  The books themselves have some hilariously bad editing (such as a class with 19/20ths BAB), so I tend to look at the errata first for any strange kalamar trick. 
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KellKheraptis

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Re: Metamagic and You: A Thesis
« Reply #122 on: March 16, 2011, 07:59:52 PM »
I think there's some drugs in SoX that allow for metamagic as well (don't have my book's with me).
i think the price made them high level stuff, and if you stopped taking them there was some "minor" drawback, but ability dam is what a lvl of binder is for. :-)


Don't suppose these can be made with major creation, can they?  I gotta ask :P
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Bigtuna

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Re: Metamagic and You: A Thesis
« Reply #123 on: March 16, 2011, 08:17:27 PM »
Just had a quick look at SoX and city and Stormreach couldn't find the damn drugs :-(
I know it was an Eberron book...

Widow

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Re: Metamagic and You: A Thesis
« Reply #124 on: March 16, 2011, 09:06:24 PM »
Just had a quick look at SoX and city and Stormreach couldn't find the damn drugs :-(
I know it was an Eberron book...


Maybe you are thinking of Dragonblood from Sharn, City of Towers.  There are three different type

1) Enlarge and extend on the next sorceror spell or dragonmark up to level 2
2) Free 4th level sorceror spell slot for 10 minutes
3) Free Maximize on all Sorcerer or dragonmarks up to 3rd level for the next minute (great with a spell shard) or +3 caster level if there are no variable effects listed for the spell.

Edit: Downside it specifically states there is an unknown ingredient in making the drug and it is not actual dragon's blood.  Probably out of luck with major creation.

Bigtuna

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Re: Metamagic and You: A Thesis
« Reply #125 on: March 17, 2011, 06:23:00 AM »
Thats the one!

The drug is magical - so no major creation :-(
But still it's metamagic without feats...

zook1shoe

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Re: Metamagic and You: A Thesis
« Reply #126 on: April 11, 2011, 03:58:30 AM »
I'm surprised the none of the Shadow Weave Magic feats are on the list.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Metamagic and You: A Thesis
« Reply #127 on: April 13, 2011, 04:49:29 PM »
Metamagic rods, obviously.

But the trick is that you don't need Craft Rod; spend 1.5x as much to add the metamagic rod ability onto a wondrous item, and use Craft Wondrous Item to do so. 4500 gp isn't bad at all to add, say, Lesser Extend onto your headband of intellect.
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Widow

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Re: Metamagic and You: A Thesis
« Reply #128 on: April 13, 2011, 05:01:07 PM »
Metamagic rods, obviously.

But the trick is that you don't need Craft Rod; spend 1.5x as much to add the metamagic rod ability onto a wondrous item, and use Craft Wondrous Item to do so. 4500 gp isn't bad at all to add, say, Lesser Extend onto your headband of intellect.

The rules state you can only use one rod at a time.  I was always tempted to use the item merge rules as you did above, but to merge two or three rods together instead.  Then you are just using one rod.

Same type of idea with nightsticks, assuming you are not applying the same source ruling for spells to it.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Metamagic and You: A Thesis
« Reply #129 on: April 23, 2011, 07:05:52 AM »
The OP should mention that the Amulet of Supremacy is a minor artifact.  I personally don't count artifacts for guides, since they're hax and really can't be taken into account.
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RelentlessImp

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Re: Metamagic and You: A Thesis
« Reply #130 on: May 11, 2011, 11:35:54 AM »
The OP should mention that the Amulet of Supremacy is a minor artifact.  I personally don't count artifacts for guides, since they're hax and really can't be taken into account.

Hm. I didn't notice that. Fixed.
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Saxony

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Re: Metamagic and You: A Thesis
« Reply #131 on: May 12, 2011, 05:17:16 PM »
Question: Any way to get Turn Undead (can't be Rebuke Undead) for a full arcane spellcaster (like Sorcerer/Wizard) other than dipping Cleric 1 or Sacred Exorcist (at level 10)? One loses a caster level, the other is very late.

As always, the bolded parts are important, the non-bolded parts are explanation.

New find as far as I can see:

Using Sacred Vitality (Libris Mortis Divine Feat) to negate all ability damage for 1 minute (among other things), in order to get 10 rounds of free metamagic from the Metaphysical Spellshaper class ability.

Sort of like Metaphysical Spellshaper + Binding Naberius/Being a Necropolitan, but better (costs a feat instead of a level and possibly undead drawbacks). The advantage over Binding Naberius is not losing a caster level and can as much metamagic as possible (rather than zapping three stats and then tapping out). The advantage over Necropolitan (there isn't much), is no undead vulnerabilities or stigmas.

Perhaps the most obvious trick is replacing Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell. Now you get 10 Persisted spells (+whatever else metamagic you have) per turning attempt, rather than 1 Persisted spell per 7. Probably more Persistent Spell applications than you have spell slots.

In the first round of combat, you're stuck to a single quickened spell (standard action -> Sacred Vitality, swift action -> quickened spell).... Unless your DM is nice and allows Quicken Turning feat (Libris Mortis) to make that Standard action Divine Feat activation into a free action (it doesn't work Rules As Written in the slightest). This is highly likely since your DM is already allowing Metaphysical Spellshaper and free metamagic.

Thus two builds, a simple one just using Cleric, and the same build dipping Cleric 1 then progressing afterward as a Wizard. The Cleric misses no caster levels, while the Wizard misses 1. The trick starts at level 6 or 7.

Human Cleric 5/Metaphysical Spellshaper 3/ Cleric More
1: Irresistable Spell, Persistent Spell, Extend Spell (Planning Domain), Extra Turning (Undeath Domain, Libris Mortis)
3: Sacred Vitality (Libris Mortis)
6: Quicken Turning (Libris Mortis)
7: Quicken Spell (MPSS bonus)
9: Fortify Spell
12: Metamagic feat
15: So on
18: So on

Human Cleric 1/ Wizard 5/Metaphysical Spellshaper 3/ Wizard More
1: Irresistable Spell, Persistent Spell, Extend Spell (Planning Domain), Extra Turning  (Undeath Domain, Libris Mortis)
3: Sacred Vitality (Libris Mortis)
6: Quicken Turning (Libris Mortis)
6: Quicken Spell (Wizard bonus)
8: Fortify Spell (MPSS bonus)
9: Metamagic feat
12: So on
15: So on
18: So on

Some credit goes to Bananaphone for answering a simple question about a year ago which clued me into a MPSS combo without Binding Naberius or Necropolitizing.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2011, 06:07:56 PM by Saxony »
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RelentlessImp

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Re: Metamagic and You: A Thesis
« Reply #132 on: May 13, 2011, 11:23:07 AM »
You can get Turn Undead for an arcane spellcaster with the Sacred Exorcist PrC from Complete Divine. Requires dismissal or dispel evil.

A build would look something like this:

Wizard 5/Metaphysical Spellshaper 3/Wizard +1/Sacred Exorcist 1/X 9

1: Extend Spell, Persistent Spell
3: Whatever
6: (MPSS Metamagic)
6: Whatever
8: (MPSS Metamagic)
9: Whatever
12: Sacred Vitality

You'd need some way of boosting Knowledge (the planes) to 10 ranks, as the Spellshaper doesn't get it as a class skill, hence the Human Paragon dip.

Either way, you're losing 1 caster level, and Binder is a slightly better dip overall.


Just realized an extra Wizard level gets you to level 9 and 5th level spells and doesn't cost a caster level, so that works better.

The Cleric dip is better overall since it gets the trick online earlier, but costs a caster level. Another build would be:

Human Sorcerer 4/Cleric 1/Metaphysical Spellshaper 3/X 13

1: Heighten Spell, Versatile Spellcaster (Flaws: Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, if available)
3: Extend Spell (Whatever if flaws available)
6: Persistent Spell (Sacred Vitality if flaws available)
6: (MPSS Metamagic)
8: (MPSS Metamagic)
9: (Sacred Vitality if flaws not available)
Etc.

I still think Binder 1 is a better dip to bind Naberius, since it heals ability damage rather than preventing it. It's a reactive measure rather than a preventative one, sure, but it better covers the bases.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2011, 11:42:29 AM by RelentlessImp »
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Saxony

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Re: Metamagic and You: A Thesis
« Reply #133 on: May 14, 2011, 05:35:12 AM »
You can get Turn Undead for an arcane spellcaster with the Sacred Exorcist PrC from Complete Divine. Requires dismissal or dispel evil.

A build would look something like this...
Yeah, I basically made that build. The trick comes online at level 12 as you now also know, which frustrated me, prompting me to ask:
Question: Any way to get Turn Undead (can't be Rebuke Undead) for a full arcane spellcaster (like Sorcerer/Wizard) other than dipping Cleric 1 or Sacred Exorcist (at level 10)? One loses a caster level, the other is very late.
I assume you are sleepy and drowzy skimmed my question.

Quote
The Cleric dip is better overall since it gets the trick online earlier, but costs a caster level.
Yeah, my thoughts pretty much exactly. Getting the Sacred Vitality trick at level 12 is well... a Wizard that does absolutely nothing special until level 12. Not really a fun build to play for 12 levels.

Quote
Human Sorcerer 4/Cleric 1/Metaphysical Spellshaper 3/X 13

1: Heighten Spell, Versatile Spellcaster (Flaws: Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, if available)
3: Extend Spell (Whatever if flaws available)
6: Persistent Spell (Sacred Vitality if flaws available)
6: (MPSS Metamagic)
7: (MPSS Metamagic)
8: (MPSS Metamagic)
9: (Sacred Vitality if flaws not available)

Nitpick 1: Metaphysical Spellshaper doesn't give you 2 metamagic feats. It gives you 1 metamagic feat on it's 2nd level.
Nitpick 2: You can get Extend Spell with the Planning Domain. It makes everybody happy.

A thing I figured out: Early qualifying for MPSS burns two feats (On Heighten Spell and some other feat to Heighten a spell to 3rd level+) to activate the trick only two levels earlier. If you had waited until level 6 to activate the trick normally, you'd have 2 more metamagic feats to play with. Early qualifying is like taking Weapon Focus twice but without the +1 accuracy.

So early qualifying is not really all that great. I know, it makes me sad, too. Stupid game. WHY DO ALL MY ATTEMPTS TO BREAK YOU MORE ONLY BREAK MY HEART?!

Cleric 1/ Something Filler 1/ MPSS 2
1: Heighten Spell, DMM: Heighten Spell, Extend Spell (Planning Domain)
3: Sacred Vitality
4: Persist Spell (MPSS Bonus feat)

Cleric 5/ MPSS 1
1: Persist Spell, Sacred Vitality, Extend Spell (Planning Domain)
3: Quicken Spell
6: Irresistible Spell

Quote
I still think Binder 1 is a better dip to bind Naberius, since it heals ability damage rather than preventing it. It's a reactive measure rather than a preventative one, sure, but it better covers the bases.
At higher levels, yes. A Binder based MPSS can only cast 6 fully metamagic buffed spells, and then it's very close to paralysis/death/coma/being a commoner (nuking its primary casting stat too low). But high level encounters are over waaaaay before you need to think about what happens after Doom Spell #6. I entered a near epic campaign about 4 sessions before its final battle as an MPSS. My DM didn't know my AC was 16 until after a solo quest half way into the penultimate boss fight.

At lower levels, no. One must endure the consequences for nova tactics and the standard action activation of Sacred Vitality hurts a lot less. Having -5 AC instead of a Dex bonus, -5 hp per each hitdie instead of a Con bonus (Probably 1 hp per hitdie if Wizard/Sorc), no fortitude save, no reflex save, no grapple/trip/disarm/bull rush opposition capability, etc. etc. will eventually bite you in the ass if you end up that way 3 rounds into every battle from level 6 to level 20. Taking that standard action at the beginning of every battle can be worth it before level 10.

After level 10, Binder all the way, I agree.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2011, 05:37:49 AM by Saxony »
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Empirate

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Re: Metamagic and You: A Thesis
« Reply #134 on: May 14, 2011, 05:10:33 PM »
I believe Born of the Three Thunders got the short end of the stick in your otherwise excellent work. First of all, changing energy damage into sonic is about as good as changing it into pure divine damage or some such (and feats that do this have received a good rating from you). Sonic resistance is very rare.

Furthermore, BotTT doesn't deafen for a round if you fail a Fort save - it STUNS for a round. That's huge! For giving up your action in the following round, you also take away the actions of everybody else who's damaged by your spell. Just pick a no-save, no-SR, multiple target spell like lesser Orb of Electricity to apply it to.

What's even better is that the wording seems to imply that the stunning+prone effect happens whenever a target takes damage from the spell (this is a bit shaky, but arguably true: "the spell concludes with a mighty thunderclap that suns all creatures that take damage from the spell for 1 round unless they succeed on a Fortitude save, then knocks stunned creatures prone unless they succeed on a Reflex save"). A damage-over-time spell, preferably with no save, comes in handy here... Electricity Substituted, BotTT Kelgore's Grave Mist is a deathtrap that also exhausts anybody failing even one save (since fatigue stacks, and the spell allows no save). And it takes only a 2nd level slot.

In addition to that, you can decide whether to apply BotTT on the fly - the only metamagic feat that I know for which this is true: "When you cast a spell... you can declare that spell to be a spell of the three thunders..." etc. Wizards, Druids etc. don't have to prepare the spell as a spell of the Three Thunders, they can just declare it to be so!


The feat's balancing factor (dazing the caster for 1 round) is obviously a pain in the behind. However, there are ways around this. Damage-over-time spells don't suffer as much from your inaction. You can hold the charge on a touch spell indefinitely, so you could cast, say, BotTT Shocking Grasp way ahead of time and take your 1 round of dazing long before combat starts.
Better yet, the Quick Recovery feat from Lords of Madness allows you to shake off the dazed condition as a move action. Best of all is, of course, immunity to dazing, which is hard to come by, but not impossible (I think there's a Cleric spell somewhere that does this?). Both are quite good for Sorcerers and Wizards anyway, due to the Celerity line of effects.


All in all, I believe BotTT is a very valuable feat that allows great versatility, turning a blast into a battlefield control effect, spontaneously applicable, and changing half of a semi-commonly resisted energy damage into sonic damage. At low levels at least, BotTT is a great boon.

Bigtuna

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Re: Metamagic and You: A Thesis
« Reply #135 on: May 14, 2011, 05:27:27 PM »

Empirate

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Re: Metamagic and You: A Thesis
« Reply #136 on: May 14, 2011, 06:37:57 PM »
I would allow it, as it takes investment to pull off to good effect, and basically all it does is make blasts viable. A good feat, not overpowered, though. It gives you options. I like options for PCs even when I DM (which is most of the time, actually).

RelentlessImp

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Re: Metamagic and You: A Thesis
« Reply #137 on: May 15, 2011, 03:02:14 AM »
Quote
Question: Any way to get Turn Undead (can't be Rebuke Undead) for a full arcane spellcaster (like Sorcerer/Wizard) other than dipping Cleric 1 or Sacred Exorcist (at level 10)? One loses a caster level, the other is very late.
I assume you are sleepy and drowzy skimmed my question.
Yes, yes I was. Sorry about that.

On Born of Three Thunders: It's decent, but it's nothing stellar. You can get the same results a few other ways. It did get a decent ranking, though. It's a solid option but nothing really special.
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Re: Metamagic and You: A Thesis
« Reply #138 on: May 28, 2011, 10:13:22 AM »
Irresistible spell + metamagic spelltrigger (CM) + wand of [phantasmal killer/any good 4th level spell]?  Could get quite expensive though. 

This might be a silly question but can you use DMM et al to reduce the cost of metamagic spelltrigger?
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zook1shoe

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Re: Metamagic and You: A Thesis
« Reply #139 on: May 28, 2011, 05:00:24 PM »
I think someone mentioned that Irresistible Spell was errata'd to +10 save instead of no save  :bigeye