Author Topic: Crunch & Fluff: What do they mean to you?  (Read 2051 times)

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Tetsubo

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Crunch & Fluff: What do they mean to you?
« on: October 29, 2010, 11:15:40 AM »
   What do these two terms mean to you?

   In video form:

   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkTA8-B1Pc4

wotmaniac

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Re: Crunch & Fluff: What do they mean to you?
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2010, 01:47:00 PM »
1st -- wow, I just realized that that's you .... you should post more often (I've enjoyed your videos for quite some time)

now for the subject matter:

For me ...
fluff = descriptive stuff
crunch = game mechanics

I think that what's important with these 2 concepts is their interaction with each other -- and this is twofold:
1) much as you said, there needs to be enough fluff to give context to the crunch so that it makes sense.
2) I'll take it a step further by applying it to philosophical approach:
  a) some view the fluff as simply an explanation of the crunch; which makes the crunch the main focus -- i.e., a gamist approach (most people here seem to fall in to this category)
  b) others view the fluff as defining the concept, with the crunch being an attempt at quantifying said fluff; which puts the main focus on the fluff (this is where my group and I typically fall).
the obvious goal (at least to me) is to find the right balance between the 2 ... which is gonna vary from person to person (and, of course, I'm going to be a bit biased towards my own balance-point; and, thus, more prepared to explain things from that POV).
« Last Edit: October 29, 2010, 01:53:32 PM by wotmaniac »

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

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Prime32

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Re: Crunch & Fluff: What do they mean to you?
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2010, 02:19:03 PM »
2) I'll take it a step further by applying it to philosophical approach:
  a) some view the fluff as simply an explanation of the crunch; which makes the crunch the main focus -- i.e., a gamist approach (most people here seem to fall in to this category)
  b) others view the fluff as defining the concept, with the crunch being an attempt at quantifying said fluff; which puts the main focus on the fluff (this is where my group and I typically fall).
I wouldn't say that...

There are lots of mechanics-focused threads but, say, "build this paladin" means that the poster came up with a concept ("paladin") first, and has little attachment to what mechanics they use.

And plenty of times reading a mechanic will give me the idea for a concept. I may not even include the actual mechanic in the end. For instance: symbiotic creature. That is awesome. I want to make a pair of characters with a symbiotic relationship.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2010, 02:22:07 PM by Prime32 »
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The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

wotmaniac

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Re: Crunch & Fluff: What do they mean to you?
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2010, 03:02:12 PM »
2) I'll take it a step further by applying it to philosophical approach:
  a) some view the fluff as simply an explanation of the crunch; which makes the crunch the main focus -- i.e., a gamist approach (most people here seem to fall in to this category)
  b) others view the fluff as defining the concept, with the crunch being an attempt at quantifying said fluff; which puts the main focus on the fluff (this is where my group and I typically fall).
I wouldn't say that...

There are lots of mechanics-focused threads but, say, "build this paladin" means that the poster came up with a concept ("paladin") first, and has little attachment to what mechanics they use.

And plenty of times reading a mechanic will give me the idea for a concept. I may not even include the actual mechanic in the end. For instance: symbiotic creature. That is awesome. I want to make a pair of characters with a symbiotic relationship.
1) the key word there was "seem" -- as in "the way I perceive things"  ;)
2) the bolded portion of your post is the genesis of that perception (whether that perception is accurate or not) :sherlock
3) to be fair .... this forum, on the whole, does have more of a gamist "feel" than do other forums (and given who the major contributors are, that should be no surprise -- just a simple observation).  That's not to say that there isn't a lot of other stuff going on .... it's just that there seems to be more gamist activity here than other sites (hell, the name of the site is brilliant GAMEOLOGISTS -- go figure) :shrug
4) I wasn't making any judgments; again, just a neutral observation -- no need to get all defensive :p

evidently there was a bit of apparent mis-characterization on my part -- sorry about that.
 :cheers

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

Prime32

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Re: Crunch & Fluff: What do they mean to you?
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2010, 03:11:31 PM »
Just pointing out - the aim of rebalancing threads (which are mechanics-focused) is that a player doesn't have to worry about mechanics, and can focus entirely on fluff.

Because you can't have the fluff of "effective one-handed fighter" if the guys in your group with other fighting styles do twice as much damage.
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

veekie

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Re: Crunch & Fluff: What do they mean to you?
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2010, 03:41:00 PM »
Well, in my case, I see crunch, the mechanics, as the rules you use to realize a piece of fluff. If a given concept fits into the conceptual framework of a game environment, but cannot be feasibly used mechanically, that is a failure of mechanics.
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Crunch & Fluff: What do they mean to you?
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2010, 09:33:26 PM »
It's a what you play vs. how you play it type of thing.

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Re: Crunch & Fluff: What do they mean to you?
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2010, 08:02:29 PM »
The CO-board is the only place where the Crunch actually "means" anything at all.

Most other home games, the crunch and the fluff are irrelevant concepts, so far as that home game is played.
And DM fiat is the thing that really matters, whether the DM and/or the players recognize it or not (or in between).

A limited number of D&D addicts (a good thing !!)
have treated the "Fluff" text as if it was defacto Crunch.
An example of this, is the Grand History Of The Realms book.
In essence, 30+ years of Fluff is Crunch ... but obviously the category is different.
Especially in regard to the CO-board.

Never-the-less ... 4th Edition screws this up.
You can't operate some of the various abilities, without diving whole cloth into the "fluff" text.
Skill Challenges are basically fluff entirely, with the real Crunch just a side-bar and almost meaningless.
And the cupcakers that inhabit the 4e C"O"-board, want some of the Crunch to be treated as Fluff.
Whimper ...  :(  ... Monsters.

Crunch might have meaning. CO-board treats Crunch as a Yes Absolutely, or tries to.
Fluff usually doesn't have real meaning, but it can.
Crunch and Fluff have little backbone vs. varying degrees of DM fiat.

imho(s) ...  :debate

LordBlades

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Re: Crunch & Fluff: What do they mean to you?
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2010, 06:37:28 AM »
For me crunch means the rules tha govern the mechanical aspect of a certain action (for example: the fact that fireball produces a 20 ft. radius spread of 1d6/CL fire damage, ref save for half is crunch).

Fluff is the description of how a certain action is percieved in the game world , in character so to say (using the above example, the fact that fireball is described as a ball of fire, as opposed to let's say a large number of small explosive projectiles is fluff).

Of course, sometimes the two mix. Like, if you are not a woman from Rashemen (in-game concept, therefore fluff), you can't take the Hathran(sp) perstige class (mechaincal effect, therefore crunch).

Cal349

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Re: Crunch & Fluff: What do they mean to you?
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2011, 05:23:35 PM »
Crunch is the mechanics of the game, how it functions, and fluff is the description of the game, how it feels.