Author Topic: NAD Builds  (Read 8378 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Caelic

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 979
NAD Builds
« on: July 04, 2008, 11:10:34 PM »
There are tons of Single-Attribute Dependent builds out there.  There are also tons of Multi-Attribute Dependent builds (for those who got lucky with the random rolls or are operating on a generous point buy.)

What about the fella whose rolls truly suck, though, or whose DM is truly stingy with the point buy?  How many No Attribute Dependent builds can we develop?


I'll toss out one for starters:

Druid 5/Master of Many Forms 10/Nature's Warrior 5


Nothing special, nothing fancy, and it can function perfectly well on nothing higher than a 13.  Of course, that's a pretty basic and well-known build; there have to be more.

Ubernoob

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2217
  • Happy Panda
    • Email
Re: NAD Builds
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2008, 11:55:18 PM »
If you're doing wildshape, that build is wrong.  NAD would be something like this:
Wildshape Ranger 5/ MoMF 10/ Nature's Warrior 5
or
Warlock 8/ Binder 1/ Hellfire Warlock 3/ Warlock +8
or
Artificer 20 (sorry, they rock too hard to get shafted by low stats)
Ubernoob is a happy panda.

Caelic

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 979
Re: NAD Builds
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2008, 01:15:06 AM »
The build I offered isn't ideal, but I try to offer the most basic build with the fewest variant rules.  In general, I agree that Wildshape Ranger is less attribute-dependent (though I consider Druid 7 into MoMF to be a superior approach, as it allows access to exceptional abilities much more quickly via Enhance Wildshape.)  While I am always a proponent of the mightiness of the Artificer, I can't agree that they're NAD--Intelligence and Charisma are extremely important to an Artificer. 

« Last Edit: July 05, 2008, 01:16:39 AM by Caelic »

Ubernoob

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2217
  • Happy Panda
    • Email
Re: NAD Builds
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2008, 01:30:56 AM »
The build I offered isn't ideal, but I try to offer the most basic build with the fewest variant rules.  In general, I agree that Wildshape Ranger is less attribute-dependent (though I consider Druid 7 into MoMF to be a superior approach, as it allows access to exceptional abilities much more quickly via Enhance Wildshape.)  While I am always a proponent of the mightiness of the Artificer, I can't agree that they're NAD--Intelligence and Charisma are extremely important to an Artificer. 


In that case, I'd want 4th level spells before getting the extra forms:
Druid 7/ MoMF 10/ Nature's Warrior 3

Ranger gives 2 higher bab, more skill points, and two feats.  Since we assume low stats the druid probably isn't casting any save or sucks and doesn't have the stats for great melee.  The druid entry assumes spamming things like that spell in SpC that grants an extra attack to someone on his riding dog until entry.  It's two feats and two bab vs an animal companion and so so casting.  Considering that we could just take the feat that grants an animal companion...
Ubernoob is a happy panda.

Caelic

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 979
Re: NAD Builds
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2008, 02:01:06 AM »

In that case, I'd want 4th level spells before getting the extra forms:
Druid 7/ MoMF 10/ Nature's Warrior 3

Ranger gives 2 higher bab, more skill points, and two feats.  Since we assume low stats the druid probably isn't casting any save or sucks and doesn't have the stats for great melee.  The druid entry assumes spamming things like that spell in SpC that grants an extra attack to someone on his riding dog until entry.  It's two feats and two bab vs an animal companion and so so casting.  Considering that we could just take the feat that grants an animal companion...



...but Wildshape Ranger is a variant rule from UA.  Nice if you can use it, but it's not a guarantee.  As I said, I tend to present the "default build."

Ubernoob

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2217
  • Happy Panda
    • Email
Re: NAD Builds
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2008, 02:16:51 AM »
...but Wildshape Ranger is a variant rule from UA.  Nice if you can use it, but it's not a guarantee.  As I said, I tend to present the "default build."
Enhance wildshape isn't core either, but point taken.
Ubernoob is a happy panda.

Akalsaris

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1143
    • Email
Re: NAD Builds
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2008, 04:55:28 PM »

Core:
1. Summoner/buffer-style cleric/wizard/bard.  You need some attributes, but you could probably get away with having a 14 in your int/wis/cha and still contribute quite a lot to the party.
2. The net-master.  Get EWP: Net and a halfling, put what few points you have into dex, and just do lots of ranged touch attacks to entangle your foes.  Not too optimized, but pretty fun and different, and you don't need stats to do your thing :P  Best for a low-level only game.
3. The super animal handler.  Just get your handle animal score up and train lots of big monsters to fight for you pokemon-style.
4. A necromancer who relies on Magic Jar spells with willing mind-slaves.  Or just raises lots of undead.  Or both.

Non-core:
1. Gimpy Master of the Unseen Hand: with a ring of telekinesis, you can enter this PrC with 8's in every stat and still do your thing =P  A ghost could also enter it if the race is allowed.
2. Dragonfire Adepts don't need attack rolls - con just helps their saves.  A dragonborn mongrelman (*shudders at the thought of it*) would have a con +6 with no LA, enough for a decent save penalty.  And you can do entangling exhalation for no-save entangles :P
3. A beast heart adept from Dungeonscape is like the above animal handler idea, only with owlbears and wyverns :P

awaken DM golem

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3294
  • PAO'd my Avatar
Re: NAD Builds
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2008, 05:41:51 PM »
Tweak one of deathwishjoe's ideas ...

Commoner 1 with nothing, straight 8s, no skills, no feats
20 gp will buy 1 or 2 castings of Hypnosis.
Walk up to Mrs. Bipple-bapple, your favorite next door neighbor.
You've managed to Take 20 on a Diplomacy check sometime while growing up.
"Hey, could you be *Helpful* and come with me to the Wizard 15, tomorrow?"
"Sure."

Later the Wizard casts the Hypnosis on Mrs. Bipple-bapple, for 10 gp.
If it doesn't work the first time, it might just work the second.
Now she's *Fanatic*.
"Mrs. Bipple-bapple, give me all your money."
Mrs. Bipple-bapple is an NPC 2, and has 2000 gp, which she gives to Commoner 1.
Commoner 1 says to Wizard 15 "Cast me a Polymorph Any Object, and here's the jink."
Commoner 1 now is a Beholder.
Commoner 1 immediately goes and finds another *helpful* neighbor, who is also NPC 2.
Repeats the above process, to make it permanent.

That ought to work.


PS - man the wizards site has been terrible lately. I searched for pun-pun and was denied permission  :fu

Dictum Mortuum

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1160
  • always female suspects
    • Email
Re: NAD Builds
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2008, 08:10:45 PM »
The least rolls you can have are: 14, 10, 10, 10, 10, 8. This is because according to the PHB, you reroll if your highest score is 13 or if the sum of all of your modifiers are 0 or less.

I think that there is a problem between no attribute and single attribute though. Even a spellcaster is going to focus on a single attribute. There are two ways in my opinion: wild shape and shape changing in general to achieve higher attributes and UMD. For example a rogue with a 10 in dexterity can relatively easy UMD wands and sneak attack people with them.
Dictum Mortuum's Handbooks: My personal character optimization blog.


ninjarabbit

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1442
    • Email
Re: NAD Builds
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2008, 09:40:09 PM »
wildshape ranger7/monk2/duskblade3/enlightenedfist8

1-ranger1-open feat
2-ranger2
3-ranger3-open feat
4-ranger4
5-ranger5
6-monk1-ascetic hunter, stunning fist
7-monk2-stunning fist, deflect arrows
8-ranger6
9-duskblade1-natural spell
10-duskblade2
11-duskblade3
12-ranger7-practiced spellcaster (duskblade)
13-enlightened fist1
14-EF2
15-EF3-extra wild shape
16-EF4
17-EF5
18-EF6-superior unarmed strike
19-EF7
20-EF8

Ubernoob

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2217
  • Happy Panda
    • Email
Re: NAD Builds
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2008, 10:27:55 PM »
Ninjarabbit?  7HD medium animals kinda suck.  Aside from 20th level unarmed damage that build saddens me on many levels.  17 bab, less than half duskblade casting, 7 HD *and* medium cap on WS.  It tries to do *way* too many things, and to be frank, fails.
Ubernoob is a happy panda.

blargney the second

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 45
    • Red Hot Swing
Re: NAD Builds
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2008, 02:46:50 AM »
You could actually make a decent crusader with nothing better than a 13.  You can go the Deep Impact route to mitigate any attack bonus deficiencies you feel you have.

Ubernoob

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2217
  • Happy Panda
    • Email
Re: NAD Builds
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2008, 02:55:57 AM »
You could actually make a decent crusader with nothing better than a 13.  You can go the Deep Impact route to mitigate any attack bonus deficiencies you feel you have.
Str to hit, con to hp, dex for AoOs...  I think I'll dispute your claim.  Care to defend it?
Ubernoob is a happy panda.

blargney the second

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 45
    • Red Hot Swing
Re: NAD Builds
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2008, 04:40:52 AM »
Str to hit, con to hp, dex for AoOs...  I think I'll dispute your claim.  Care to defend it?
Like any character, getting more stats is always nice.  But in the case of the crusader, good stats aren't necessary for the class to work.  Having played one to mid levels, I was surprised at how effective my character remained even with occasionally reduced stats from ray of enfeeblement, poison damage, and the like.  With damaging strikes you'll do okay with lowish attack stats as long as you keep up your BAB and don't reduce it further with combat feats like power attack, combat expertise, and the like.

It's really a remarkably non-ability dependent class.  You'll just get a bit better if you manage to have better stats.
-blarg
« Last Edit: July 06, 2008, 04:43:23 AM by blargney the second »

Tshern

  • Clown Prince of Crime
  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5726
  • Aistii valoa auttavasti
    • Email
Re: NAD Builds
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2008, 12:40:52 PM »
You could actually make a decent crusader with nothing better than a 13.  You can go the Deep Impact route to mitigate any attack bonus deficiencies you feel you have.
Most interesting. Makes me wonder if I could make a decent Crusader/Warmind utilizing strikes and Deep impact... Why on earth there is no class that mixes psionics and initiator levels?

Handy Links

BowenSilverclaw

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5337
  • Walking that fine line between genius and insanity
    • Email
Re: NAD Builds
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2008, 01:10:28 PM »
I guess they once again decided against giving psionics (or incarnum for that matter) any love  :eh
"Weakness? Come test thy mettle against me, hairless ape, and we shall know who is weak!"

Quote from: J0lt
You caught a fish.  It was awesome.   :lol

Tshern

  • Clown Prince of Crime
  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5726
  • Aistii valoa auttavasti
    • Email
Re: NAD Builds
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2008, 01:16:35 PM »
I hear they do that at times.

Handy Links

Kuroimaken

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 6733
Re: NAD Builds
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2008, 01:19:07 PM »
Hey, aren't you guys forgetting the Binder somewhere in there? His powers work whether he succeeds or fails the binding check, and since binding is his primary (only?) class feature, that might make him NAD. They have a lot of options at their disposal, too.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


awaken DM golem

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3294
  • PAO'd my Avatar
Re: NAD Builds
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2008, 10:08:44 PM »
OA Samurai 1 gets that magic katana crafting stuff, with NAD at all.

Tshern - Warmind would need an 11 in Wis to take advantage of its manifesting. An 11 point build would have an 11 in something. So why not?  This low balls what Dictum Mortuum posted, intentionally.

Having an 11 in a caster stat, opens up lots of Caster Level fun, specially for crafting.
UMD with multiple bonus items, and Leadership.
Metamind can be done without a psi class; it looks stupid though.
Soulknife cough sniff.


Incarnum for lots of versatility, and shape one soulmeld with a Con of 11.
Incarnum feats are out due to a 13 Con; as are most feats with any stat stuff.
The 5 level Incarnum fighter PrC doesn't require anything, and can do the Heart of Incarnum trick for very high HPs.

Binder ?!
Yeah, Phoenix00 can say some stuff about Binder. Where's he at ??

awaken DM golem

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3294
  • PAO'd my Avatar
Re: NAD Builds
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2008, 05:19:02 PM »
Leadership still works, but no where near as well.
Big Guy Is With Me, still works as PsyWar, although with no powers it is gimped.
psly4mne's Arbitrary build still works, it just happens later.

Aristocrat with Mercantile kicks off the Bunko's shopping spree --- "I'm beautiful, Dammit !!"