Wizard vs Wizard!

[Sunic_Flames]

The rules are simple. One Wizard must only use spells from core. The other Wizard must not use any spells from core.

I'm not interested in making either one of them, so you guys work out the rest.

[RelentlessImp]

Non-Core Wizard wins by virtue of having Celerity and the nature of Rocket Tag.

[bearsarebrown]

Core Wizard wins with CoP. End of fucking story. And no, I don't want to have an argument about how powerful CoP is. Or what could block it. Because nothing can.

Unless there is a way to CoP out of core.

[BruceLeeroy]

Non-core wizard wins by living a full life, free from the drudgery of casting CoP 10,000 times a week.

[Maat_Mons]

Unless there is a way to CoP out of core.

The only thing I can think of is to somehow gain access to the supernatural abilities of an elemental weird (Monster Manual II).  You could acquire the elemental type, wear a skin of Proteus (with boosted manifester level), and take either metamorphic transfer or assume supernatural ability. 

[RelentlessImp]

Unless there is a way to CoP out of core.

The only thing I can think of is to somehow gain access to the supernatural abilities of an elemental weird (Monster Manual II).  You could acquire the elemental type, wear a skin of Proteus (with boosted manifester level), and take either metamorphic transfer or assume supernatural ability. 

This is what the Core Wizard does, by Shapechanging into an Elemental Weird and getting at-will Contact Other Plane. I suppose with a Shapechange effect out of Core he could do the same thing... isn't there a Wu Jen Elemental Body or something that does this? Immediately boosting the non-Core to utilizing the same tactic.

[bearsarebrown]

Then they both have CoP and it's a theoretical tie. A better question might be Core vs World and Non-Core vs World, what's more powerful?

You'd have to ban workarounds to achieve core material though.

[skydragonknight]

Why not make things interesting and limit polymorph forms to core-only for the Core Wizard and non-Core for the Other Wizard? Since the whole point is to (dis)prove Core > Splat, shape-changing into non-Core things is not a constructive argument.

Magic items...guess both should be just DMG (and maybe MIC), just to keep things simple/sane. Banning anything that emulates a spell effect (candle of invocation...), just to make the Wizards use their spells, though wands/staves should be fine as long as you stick to spells you would be allowed to learn under the challenge.

[juton]

A note on Celerity, a Wizard can't normally use it in the first round. The most obvious ways around that are Foresight, and Shape Changing into a Minotaur. Which are both core of course.

[bearsarebrown]

A note on Celerity, a Wizard can't normally use it in the first round. The most obvious ways around that are Foresight, and Shape Changing into a Minotaur. Which are both core of course.

Less obvious ways include a Weapon of Legacy.

[Bozwevial]

A note on Celerity, a Wizard can't normally use it in the first round. The most obvious ways around that are Foresight, and Shape Changing into a Minotaur. Which are both core of course.

Less obvious ways include a Weapon of Legacy.

And since that's one of the few really good things a legacy weapon can do...

Hmm. What ways are there for the non-Core wizard to become a Dire Tortoise?

[skydragonknight]

A note on Celerity, a Wizard can't normally use it in the first round. The most obvious ways around that are Foresight, and Shape Changing into a Minotaur. Which are both core of course.

Less obvious ways include a Weapon of Legacy.

And since that's one of the few really good things a legacy weapon can do...

Hmm. What ways are there for the non-Core wizard to become a Dire Tortoise?

Draconic Polymorph, but you don't even get (Ex) abilities with that.

[RobbyPants]

Of course, Core has Plane Shift + Genesis, Astral Projection and Simulacrum.  You can attack with an army of yourself, have extra lives, and replenish spell slots at the cost of a single Plane Shift.

[Epimetheus]

Of course, Core has Plane Shift + Genesis, Astral Projection and Simulacrum.  You can attack with an army of yourself, have extra lives, and replenish spell slots at the cost of a single Plane Shift.

How do you replenish your slots with Plane Shift? 

[Garryl]

Of course, Core has Plane Shift + Genesis, Astral Projection and Simulacrum.  You can attack with an army of yourself, have extra lives, and replenish spell slots at the cost of a single Plane Shift.

How do you replenish your slots with Plane Shift? 

Genesis can make a flowing time plane. Make one so that 24 hours on your demiplane is equal to an arbitrarily small amount of time on the plane you'll be fighting on. Plane Shift to your demiplane, rest up, and return in the same round.

On a side note, that's actually within the domain of the non-core wizard. Genesis is non-core, even though it's from the SRD (it's from Deities and Demigods, not PHB, DMG, or MM1).

[RelentlessImp]

Of course, Core has Plane Shift + Genesis, Astral Projection and Simulacrum.  You can attack with an army of yourself, have extra lives, and replenish spell slots at the cost of a single Plane Shift.

How do you replenish your slots with Plane Shift? 

Genesis can make a flowing time plane. Make one so that 24 hours on your demiplane is equal to an arbitrarily small amount of time on the plane you'll be fighting on. Plane Shift to your demiplane, rest up, and return in the same round.

On a side note, that's actually within the domain of the non-core wizard. Genesis is non-core, even though it's from the SRD (it's from Deities and Demigods, not PHB, DMG, or MM1).

Worth noting, the psionic equivalent doesn't let you do that, but the spell does.

[RobbyPants]

Well son of a bitch.  I've been using the SRD for so long I forgot it isn't in the PHB.

So I guess non-core guy has unlimited spells and core guy has unlimited duplicates.

[Endarire]

You don't need to make your own (demi)plane.  Instead, go to a published plane where time moves faster.  The only way you can do this in core is if your DM lets you find a plane where time moves faster.  The rules for creating planes is on Dungeon Master's Guide 168.

Some core planes are of interest.  The Abyss may have a place where time flows backwards, should you need it.  Also, the Astral Plane is timeless.  Heroic Domains of Ysgard is just cool.

[Mixster]

Depends on the level.
In low levels fights, I'd think the core wizard would win. In high it would probably be a tie due to the fact wizards can everything. Core or Non-Core.

[BeholderSlayer]

Genesis is also in the ELH, so, depending on if you consider the ELH core the core-only wizard could use it (or not). ELH seems to fit with core moreso than non-core, as it touches epic progressions for only core classes and prestige classes.