Author Topic: Spellcasting and Art Musings  (Read 3216 times)

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bkdubs123

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Spellcasting and Art Musings
« on: October 27, 2010, 03:17:17 AM »
So, in just about every artwork of a spellcaster I can think of, the caster is holding a weapon in their off-hand and casting a spell with their main hand. This seems to indicate that the spellcaster isn't simply slinging spells all day long and implies that they, at least occasionally, use that weapon from time to time. Literary characters such as Gandalf support this, while literary characters such as Harry Potter refute this.

I was just thinking of something that might be cool, I dunno, but bear with me. Casters have spells and rituals. Spells come in a variety of level-appropriate flavors and are categorized by spell level. All spells can be cast in a single turn (be it with a swift action, and standard action, or a full-round action). After casting a spell you are unable to use spells of that level for 1d4 rounds (or 3 rounds, or 5 rounds, or something to this effect). Spells have a heavy emphasis on instantaneous effects. Rituals can't be cast in a single turn, and probably can't be cast in even as short a timespan as 1 minute. Rituals are likely also categorized by spell level, but probably don't have a limitation on how often you can cast them other than components. In this sense, spells never require material components, but rituals likely usually do. Ritual material components should then always be fairly costly. Rituals have a heavy emphasis on effects with lasting durations.

It might even be interesting to offer a Wizard character a single allotment of "Magics" known allowing them to choose between being more of a "warwizard," being more of a "bookworm", or being some combination of both.

Examples of 1st Level Spells (as per this definition of Spells)
Grease
Obscuring Mist
True Strike
Charm Person
Magic Missile
Cause Fear
Jump

Examples of 1st level Rituals
Alarm
Mage Armor
Identify
Silent Image
Enlarge Person

*Please note that while I am using the names of 3.5 spells, I am seeking only to invoke the particular concepts behind those spells, I am not necessarily suggesting that the ideas in this post be applied to the exact mechanics of those spells. Also, don't feel compelled to apply the ideas of this post only to the 3.5 edition of D&D OR to any D&D game at all for that matter.

Prime32

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Re: Spellcasting and Art Musings
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2010, 10:46:14 AM »
So, in just about every artwork of a spellcaster I can think of, the caster is holding a weapon in their off-hand and casting a spell with their main hand. This seems to indicate that the spellcaster isn't simply slinging spells all day long and implies that they, at least occasionally, use that weapon from time to time. Literary characters such as Gandalf support this, while literary characters such as Harry Potter refute this.
Here's a feat I came up with for this:
Quote
Spelldancer [Fighter]
Prerequisites: Arcane caster level 1st, proficiency with longsword or rapier, Perform (dance) 4 ranks
Benefit: While wielding a longsword or rapier in one hand and nothing in the other, you may use your arcane caster level in place of your base attack bonus. You cannot attack with weapons other than your longsword or rapier in the round you gain this benefit (including touch spells, but not spells channeled through an appropriate weapon).
Special: Spelldancer can be used in place of the Weapon Focus (longsword or rapier) feat to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other special ability. An elf wizard may select this feat as one of his bonus feats.
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Amechra

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Re: Spellcasting and Art Musings
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2010, 09:35:35 PM »
Ummm, Prime, does that feat make your BAB equal CL for the purpose of Power Attack and other feats?
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

My final project for my film independent study course. It could do with a watching and critiquing

veekie

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Re: Spellcasting and Art Musings
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2010, 11:01:19 AM »
I think you might get something out of allowing spellcasters to invest their spell slots/points into longer lasting effects at the cost of what they can pull up improvised.

I got some ideas for sorcerors to sink slots into long duration buffs linked to their heritage.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Prime32

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Re: Spellcasting and Art Musings
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2010, 11:27:42 AM »
Ummm, Prime, does that feat make your BAB equal CL for the purpose of Power Attack and other feats?
Not for meeting prereqs. But yes, you could use Power Attack if you take the feat, use spells to give yourself decent Str, and don't mind the 1:1 damage returns.
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Amechra

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Re: Spellcasting and Art Musings
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2010, 02:06:20 PM »
I'm wondering because you could hit 4 iteratives at lvl 10 with it, through Wizard 5/Red Wizard 5.

BAB of 40 is nice, right?
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

My final project for my film independent study course. It could do with a watching and critiquing

bkdubs123

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Re: Spellcasting and Art Musings
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2010, 03:46:29 PM »
Well, this type of idea (the one I put forward in the OP) works best in a system where everybody has the same attack bonus, that way the weapon the Wizard is holding might actually hit something. I just brought it up because it seems like there is a vast majority consensus that Wizards and/or other spellcasters carry a weapon around. If they're carrying that weapon around it ought to be assumed that they use it on occasion.

dither

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Re: Spellcasting and Art Musings
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2010, 04:09:24 PM »
So, in just about every artwork of a spellcaster I can think of, the caster is holding a weapon in their off-hand and casting a spell with their main hand. This seems to indicate that the spellcaster isn't simply slinging spells all day long and implies that they, at least occasionally, use that weapon from time to time. Literary characters such as Gandalf support this, while literary characters such as Harry Potter refute this.

I don't see how this first thing you said connects to the second thing you said (with the rituals and the lists), but I think it's a neat idea that magic be something a spellcaster does in addition to kicking ass with a weapon (though not in the same way a fighter does). Actually, Guild Wars 2 is doing something like this with the powers-from-weapons thing. A necromancer armed with an axe has access to different powers than a necromancer armed with a sword, for instance.

I'm also interested in the focus-in-one-hand-nothing-in-the-other concept. I think the off-hand focus with a hand to direct the spell should be one of several different types of spellcasting "styles," as gesturing with pointing or crooked fingers is cool-looking and evocative in both art and film. It's a whole thing. :D
"Stuck between a rogue and a bard place."

vanity
Read my webcomic!
Dither's Amazing Changing Avatars

[spoiler]
Quote from: Shadowhunter
Quote from: Flay Crimsonwind
"Vegeta! What does the scouter say about Dither's power level?"
It's over nine thousand!

Quote from: Bauglir
Quote from: Anklebite
Quote from: dither
Well blow me down! :P
A SECTION OF THE CAVERN HAS COLLAPSED!
dither, Miner, has died after colliding with an obstacle!
[/spoiler]

bkdubs123

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Re: Spellcasting and Art Musings
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2010, 04:39:32 PM »
I don't see how this first thing you said connects to the second thing you said (with the rituals and the lists), but I think it's a neat idea that magic be something a spellcaster does in addition to kicking ass with a weapon (though not in the same way a fighter does).

Well, if a caster can't cast his spells for a number of rounds then he's gotta rely on something else. It might as well be that staff/sword/crossbow in his off-hand.

Quote
Actually, Guild Wars 2 is doing something like this with the powers-from-weapons thing. A necromancer armed with an axe has access to different powers than a necromancer armed with a sword, for instance.

That's pretty darned cool.

In a new d20 system I've been off and on working on all characters have the same attack bonus, Fighters just have weapon techniques and Wizards don't. A Fighter might walk around in Punisher's Stance all day and swing away with Steel Wind and Penetrating Strike, while a Wizard might prepare Burning Blade for a constant, but weak burn added to his basic melee attacks and could cast it to really turn up the heat.

dither

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Re: Spellcasting and Art Musings
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2010, 05:05:44 PM »
Well, if a caster can't cast his spells for a number of rounds then he's gotta rely on something else. It might as well be that staff/sword/crossbow in his off-hand.

I thought that we already established that just swinging a sword or shooting a crossbow for a couple rounds was boring. :p

In a new d20 system I've been off and on working on all characters have the same attack bonus, Fighters just have weapon techniques and Wizards don't. A Fighter might walk around in Punisher's Stance all day and swing away with Steel Wind and Penetrating Strike, while a Wizard might prepare Burning Blade for a constant, but weak burn added to his basic melee attacks and could cast it to really turn up the heat.

Let me know how that works out for you. I enjoyed working with you before, I'm interested to see what sorts of things you design. :)
"Stuck between a rogue and a bard place."

vanity
Read my webcomic!
Dither's Amazing Changing Avatars

[spoiler]
Quote from: Shadowhunter
Quote from: Flay Crimsonwind
"Vegeta! What does the scouter say about Dither's power level?"
It's over nine thousand!

Quote from: Bauglir
Quote from: Anklebite
Quote from: dither
Well blow me down! :P
A SECTION OF THE CAVERN HAS COLLAPSED!
dither, Miner, has died after colliding with an obstacle!
[/spoiler]

Prime32

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Re: Spellcasting and Art Musings
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2010, 06:12:26 PM »
I'm wondering because you could hit 4 iteratives at lvl 10 with it, through Wizard 5/Red Wizard 5.

BAB of 40 is nice, right?
Oh, I just got a caster level of 40. What's the best use I can make of this? I know, I'll run into melee and hit people with a stick! :p Let's move this conversation to the thread though.

I support giving everyone the same attack bonus - I've proposed giving the warrior types maneuvers based on BAB.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 06:14:47 PM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Amechra

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Re: Spellcasting and Art Musings
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2010, 10:47:11 PM »
Alright, I know my example was bad.

Nice feats.

(Aaaaand I'm out of the thread.)
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

My final project for my film independent study course. It could do with a watching and critiquing

bkdubs123

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Re: Spellcasting and Art Musings
« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2010, 03:39:45 AM »
In a new d20 system I've been off and on working on all characters have the same attack bonus, Fighters just have weapon techniques and Wizards don't. A Fighter might walk around in Punisher's Stance all day and swing away with Steel Wind and Penetrating Strike, while a Wizard might prepare Burning Blade for a constant, but weak burn added to his basic melee attacks and could cast it to really turn up the heat.

Let me know how that works out for you. I enjoyed working with you before, I'm interested to see what sorts of things you design. :)

Well, for instance, Ability Score Dependence is determined by build, not class. Blaster Wizards probably have high Dexterity can disregard Intelligence, while Beguilers rely on Intelligence and Charisma. If you want to play a dashing swordsman, play a Fighter with a light weapon and some social skill powers relying on Dexterity and Charisma. Unarmed characters maintain a high Constitution to modify their natural attacks, but a Monk might also value Wisdom or Charisma depending on whether he wants to delve into his spiritual side or his supernatural side.

I'm designing it to make the widest spectrum of character types viable out of the box. A Duskblade is just a Wizard with proper ability scores and spell selection. A Dragonfire Adept is a theme-built Sorcerer. A Rogue will likely be able to fill archetypes all the way from deadly trapfinder to wily artificer.

Weapon and Armor proficiency doesn't exist. Anyone can wield and wear anything. You can train further and gain powers based on weapons and/or armor depending on your class. So a Wizard can walk around in Full Plate and get the standard armor bonuses while taking no penalties to spellcasting, but a Fighter might get better use out of it.

I want 3.5 style (ish) multiclassing, but I want it to work properly. Same attack bonus across the board helps this, as does losing proficiencies. I figure I'll throw in Tome of Battle style multiclassing as the default rule too. This seems to work for me.

Skills are being replaced with Skill Powers which are basically feats and skill tricks rolled into one system. Characters buy the uses of skills they want with Skill Points per level and they ignore the uses they don't want/need.

That seems to be the basics as I've got them worked out so far.

dither

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Re: Spellcasting and Art Musings
« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2010, 01:38:01 PM »
I want 3.5 style (ish) multiclassing, but I want it to work properly.

I don't know what this means. I was always under the impression that people multiclassed their characters because they couldn't get the effect they wanted within the limits of their class, or because some need of the party wasn't being filled -- this is certainly why I tend to multiclass.

What is the purpose of multiclassing and why is it necessary?

...incidentally, I think some of the weakness in the system may be in its most generic classes. Why are there a fighter, rogue, cleric, and wizard? Why is it necessary to have those generic classes? Why aren't there separate classes for Trapfinder, Swashbuckler, and Wily Artificer?

--That might make multiclassing make more sense?
« Last Edit: October 29, 2010, 01:41:07 PM by dither »
"Stuck between a rogue and a bard place."

vanity
Read my webcomic!
Dither's Amazing Changing Avatars

[spoiler]
Quote from: Shadowhunter
Quote from: Flay Crimsonwind
"Vegeta! What does the scouter say about Dither's power level?"
It's over nine thousand!

Quote from: Bauglir
Quote from: Anklebite
Quote from: dither
Well blow me down! :P
A SECTION OF THE CAVERN HAS COLLAPSED!
dither, Miner, has died after colliding with an obstacle!
[/spoiler]

RobbyPants

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Re: Spellcasting and Art Musings
« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2010, 02:04:30 PM »
I'm assuming he wants fairly free-form multiclassing, but not to have all the underlying issues of being able to stack BAB and accumulate class features, but not being able to advance casting.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

veekie

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Re: Spellcasting and Art Musings
« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2010, 03:53:27 PM »
I'm assuming he wants fairly free-form multiclassing, but not to have all the underlying issues of being able to stack BAB and accumulate class features, but not being able to advance casting.
Pretty much it I bet.
Successful multiclassing allows
1) Mixing and matching concepts freely with mechanical outcomes
2) Keeping power gained on par with single classed characters
3) Gaining abilities that are consistent in fluff(a Fighter 9/Wizard 4 has the basic cantrips, low level spells, combat tricks of their appropriate training, but the magnitude is relevant at their effective level of 13)
4) Gaining abilities that are useful for their level.

2 can be dealt with via caps on statistics or making the base numbers independent of the classes
3 & 4 are difficult bedfellows, you'd need accelerated gain of low level abilities for a high level character, keep the raw statistics appropriate for the level, and keep the total ability within the limits of 2.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

RobbyPants

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Re: Spellcasting and Art Musings
« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2010, 04:17:05 PM »
3 and 4 are totally doable, but they require a big overhaul of the system, if not a flat-out rewrite.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

bkdubs123

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Re: Spellcasting and Art Musings
« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2010, 03:40:09 AM »
3 and 4 are totally doable, but they require a big overhaul of the system, if not a flat-out rewrite.

Yeah, which is what I'm doing. It's not exactly DnD anymore, but it is definitely a d20 game with a lot of familiarity.