Author Topic: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).  (Read 12635 times)

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McPoyo

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #80 on: October 27, 2010, 10:03:21 PM »
I recall a PF boost, that lets Sorcs trade Skill Points for spells.
Really.
Sorc 1 with Versatile stuff / Rogue maybe Feat Rogue 2 with lots of Int.
trade a whole bunch of those skill points
spells known, to a limit of one level lower than your maximum. It's a favored class choice in the APG for humans. If sorc is your favored class, you can gain an extra spell known instead of an extra skill point or hit point.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
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[/spoiler]

X-Codes

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #81 on: October 28, 2010, 03:18:03 AM »
Money shots

Fail. Anyone else?
If not Money Shots, then you fail, because Buff Wizards doesn't fit.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #82 on: October 28, 2010, 04:58:25 AM »
GIANT ROBOT?
TUNAS BLAST?
HYPER ETHER?
RABID SNAIL?
FADED FLAGS?
BROOM SWEEP?

...

EARTH BOUND?
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #83 on: October 28, 2010, 08:43:56 AM »
Great Fluff.  It certainly isn't power creep, since 3.5 core books are the most broken of the lot.

No, it actually is power creep.

Note that it doesn't matter if you actually have any power creep or not, just that you convince people you do long enough to buy your stuff. There's enough 'core is balanced, splatbooks are broken' people to fuel just such a mentality.

And if you ask Pathfailure players the same thing they'll tell you things like Fighters are stronger, or Rogues are stronger, or all classes are stronger. All of these claims are objectively false, but they are nonetheless the only reason why those people bought it. They wanted more power. And they think they got it. It's also why they react so strongly to people telling them the truth about class power. After all, that would mean both admitting they were wrong, and that they wasted their money because they were tricked. Much easier to just demonize the messenger and ignore them. So the Paizils do that.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #84 on: October 28, 2010, 08:59:20 AM »
I think you're projecting.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #85 on: October 28, 2010, 09:29:17 AM »
I think you're projecting.

Nope. If I were I'd assume people had a clue.
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Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

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Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

skydragonknight

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #86 on: October 28, 2010, 09:57:36 AM »
New Pathfinder material: 2 steps forward, 1d6 steps back.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

Mixster

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #87 on: October 28, 2010, 10:15:40 AM »
New Pathfinder material: 2 steps forward, 1d6 steps back.
Almost like a Wild Mage.

To be fair, you do get more power with splatbooks in D&D. It is harder to kill a troll with a level 5 character who is core, than to kill a troll with a level 5 character that can use any splatbook he wants to. So there is a power creep, the power creep is just higher for non-casters than casters, so many people, who thought core classes were balanced, think splatbooks are broken because it screws up the balance, those people that see wizard and druids as broken in core will think splatbooks are all-right, because they didn't buff the druid and the wizard quite as much as the fighter and the rogue, and the bard. It even put in new classes like the samurai, so the fighter could feel a lot better.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

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Bauglir

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #88 on: October 28, 2010, 01:39:35 PM »
My experience is that splatbooks buff prepared casters more than anyone else by virtue of the fact that they get more options for free because they either know their entire spell list or it's trivial to expand it cheaply (wizards). Not that that means Core doesn't have some of the most blatantly overpowered examples, but strictly speaking non-Core is still a steep improvement for those who don't have limited spells known. Everyone else has to give shit up (it may well be shit, in the case of the Fighter, but it's still something) to take advantage of splatbook material.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

archangel.arcanis

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #89 on: October 28, 2010, 01:44:58 PM »
My experience is that splatbooks buff prepared casters more than anyone else by virtue of the fact that they get more options for free because they either know their entire spell list or it's trivial to expand it cheaply (wizards). Not that that means Core doesn't have some of the most blatantly overpowered examples, but strictly speaking non-Core is still a steep improvement for those who don't have limited spells known. Everyone else has to give shit up (it may well be shit, in the case of the Fighter, but it's still something) to take advantage of splatbook material.
This made me see another basic design flaw that favors casters. All non-casters can only improve through feats and skills which are finite resources. While most casters gain power and versatility at no cost (most divine casters) or for an infinite resource (gold for wizards/archivists). I'm sure it has already been said and I've probably thought about it before, but this just produced a light bulb moment. Continue with your bashing of PF now.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #90 on: October 28, 2010, 03:16:32 PM »
My experience is that splatbooks buff prepared casters more than anyone else by virtue of the fact that they get more options for free because they either know their entire spell list or it's trivial to expand it cheaply (wizards). Not that that means Core doesn't have some of the most blatantly overpowered examples, but strictly speaking non-Core is still a steep improvement for those who don't have limited spells known. Everyone else has to give shit up (it may well be shit, in the case of the Fighter, but it's still something) to take advantage of splatbook material.
This made me see another basic design flaw that favors casters. All non-casters can only improve through feats and skills which are finite resources. While most casters gain power and versatility at no cost (most divine casters) or for an infinite resource (gold for wizards/archivists). I'm sure it has already been said and I've probably thought about it before, but this just produced a light bulb moment. Continue with your bashing of PF now.

That would be true, except that to count as power gain it has to be better than what you already have. Being able to get 100 different flavors of 1d6/CL damage is quite meaningless, for example. So while a caster can use splatbook material for free, most of it is worse than what he already has. It's no coincidence that optimized casters are still at least 75% core no matter how many books are available to them.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

BruceLeeroy

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #91 on: October 28, 2010, 03:30:14 PM »
Eh... Celerity? Arcane Fusion/Spellsurge?

Yea, most of the archtypically broken spells (Gate, polymorph, etc) are core, but a (Core Spells) Wiz 20 vs (Core + Splatbook Spells) Wiz 20 isn't even a contest. The splatbook version is going to go first and go twice before the core version can act.

Fundamentally, power in D&D is about two things: action economy and versatility. Anything that enhances those aspects of a character increases the power of every asset that character has. "Core is balanced, splatbooks are broken" isn't as inaccurate as you make it out to be when considered in those terms.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #92 on: October 28, 2010, 03:36:01 PM »
The spells you mention are the handful of exceptions. Now contrast a core only Fighter, who is stuck flailing for piddly shit damage to an all books, properly made melee. The latter is about 50 times better. The two Wizards are a lot closer together.

Core still gets you awesomesauce Wizards. It just can't give you a viable melee character, unless you don't mind being a furry who takes orders from a hippie. :P Non core closes that gap, which is why that statement is a lie.
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There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

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Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #93 on: October 28, 2010, 04:26:45 PM »
Eh... Celerity? Arcane Fusion/Spellsurge?

Yea, most of the archtypically broken spells (Gate, polymorph, etc) are core, but a (Core Spells) Wiz 20 vs (Core + Splatbook Spells) Wiz 20 isn't even a contest. The splatbook version is going to go first and go twice before the core version can act.

Fundamentally, power in D&D is about two things: action economy and versatility. Anything that enhances those aspects of a character increases the power of every asset that character has. "Core is balanced, splatbooks are broken" isn't as inaccurate as you make it out to be when considered in those terms.
Yes, a wizard that uses non-core plus core materials is more powerful than one who uses only core materials. That still doesn't mean that core is more balanced than core+. Try comparing a wizard that doesn't use any spells out of core with one that uses only spells from core. I think the core only will likely be stronger. Maybe not in a duel, due to Celerity, but in pretty much all other ways. The non-core guy can't cast Time Stop or Contingency. So the core guy's contingency trigger can totally be "when X casts Celerity", and then he'll probably win in a duel, too.

The increase in the power of casters when you add splats is minuscule compared to the power increase that non-casters get. That's why core only games are more imbalanced that core+ games. At least a non-core melee guy can actually contribute meaningfully past level 5 or so if he is an uber-charger (or other optimized build). The core melee guys can't even do that when compared to what an equal-level core caster could bring to the same party. They just fail and fail some more, and then fail even harder.
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Bauglir

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #94 on: October 28, 2010, 04:59:14 PM »
I am, admittedly, taking into account versatility besides raw power. The Cleric can say "Fuck this, let's take the rest of the night off and when we come back in the morning I'll have the spell we need to get past the tentacle monster". He can do this whether you're in Core or not, but if you're allowing splats he's likelier to have the perfect spell when you come back. While the Fighter, who got locked into the feats that are most generally powerful, gets shafted by not having access to the perfect feat from whatever splat, even if that splat was open during character creation. It's not so much about casters vs noncasters in my mind as those who can rearrange attributes on a daily basis; those who can get a far greater advantage out of a wider array of attributes than those who have to stick with the ones they pick.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

Tshern

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #95 on: October 28, 2010, 05:06:36 PM »
Assuming there would be a perfect feat for the situation. If the Fighter has to drag his sorry behind to the Elemental Plane of Fire switching Power attack for something else is probably not going to cut it...

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skydragonknight

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #96 on: October 28, 2010, 05:47:42 PM »
The only noncaster in Core that can even contribute at higher levels is a twf rogue or rogue/assassin with greater invis. Though even they are gimped against critters immune to criticals - something which non-core gives ways around.
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BruceLeeroy

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #97 on: October 28, 2010, 07:29:48 PM »
Eh... Celerity? Arcane Fusion/Spellsurge?

Yea, most of the archtypically broken spells (Gate, polymorph, etc) are core, but a (Core Spells) Wiz 20 vs (Core + Splatbook Spells) Wiz 20 isn't even a contest. The splatbook version is going to go first and go twice before the core version can act.

Fundamentally, power in D&D is about two things: action economy and versatility. Anything that enhances those aspects of a character increases the power of every asset that character has. "Core is balanced, splatbooks are broken" isn't as inaccurate as you make it out to be when considered in those terms.
Yes, a wizard that uses non-core plus core materials is more powerful than one who uses only core materials. That still doesn't mean that core is more balanced than core+. Try comparing a wizard that doesn't use any spells out of core with one that uses only spells from core. I think the core only will likely be stronger. Maybe not in a duel, due to Celerity, but in pretty much all other ways. The non-core guy can't cast Time Stop or Contingency. So the core guy's contingency trigger can totally be "when X casts Celerity", and then he'll probably win in a duel, too.

The increase in the power of casters when you add splats is minuscule compared to the power increase that non-casters get. That's why core only games are more imbalanced that core+ games. At least a non-core melee guy can actually contribute meaningfully past level 5 or so if he is an uber-charger (or other optimized build). The core melee guys can't even do that when compared to what an equal-level core caster could bring to the same party. They just fail and fail some more, and then fail even harder.

Bolded part actually sounds like a fun optimization challenge. Anyone with the free time to spare willing to try it? My op-fu may or may not be up to the task, but I know my schedule absolutely isn't. I'd still like to see it tried.

juton

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #98 on: October 28, 2010, 09:12:39 PM »
Try comparing a wizard that doesn't use any spells out of core with one that uses only spells from core.

Bolded part actually sounds like a fun optimization challenge. Anyone with the free time to spare willing to try it? My op-fu may or may not be up to the task, but I know my schedule absolutely isn't. I'd still like to see it tried.

I've wondered a lot about a match up something like this, but a lot of ground rules need to be set. For instance can the non-core wizard can use spells that emulate or expand on the basic core spells, like Greater Plane Shift (SpC) is to Plane Shift (PHB)? Is the core Wizard limited to only core feats, if so is the non-core Wizard prevented from taking core feats?

I remember hearing that all the best divination spells are core (Contact other plane, Divination, Commune) if the non-core caster can't counter them or replicate them it would be a short challenge I think.

X-Codes

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #99 on: October 29, 2010, 01:25:51 AM »
The only noncaster in Core that can even contribute at higher levels is a twf rogue or rogue/assassin with greater invis. Though even they are gimped against critters immune to criticals - something which non-core gives ways around.
No.  One thing that never changes is the fact that sneak attack sucks hard.  It's not a serious damage mechanism like Backstab was, it's a bone you throw to skillmonkies so they don't feel like pathetic retards when the shit goes down.  Even in core, with piddly few multipliers, a power-attacking, tripping, THF Barbarian is still better than a TWF Rogue UMDing a Wand of Greater Invis.