Author Topic: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).  (Read 12632 times)

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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #60 on: October 27, 2010, 05:17:11 PM »
Level 1 dragonfire adept burns the world to death, doesn't it?

Sounds like TO, but how does it do that?
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #61 on: October 27, 2010, 05:23:56 PM »
Level 1 dragonfire adept burns the world to death, doesn't it?

Sounds like TO, but how does it do that?

Multiple applications of Enlarge Breath (you can't use your Breath Weapon for a year afterwards, but you can cover any plane of existence the size of Earth in acid). Add in Clinging and Lingering Breath for auto-kill on every commoner in the area.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #62 on: October 27, 2010, 05:27:03 PM »
Level 1 dragonfire adept burns the world to death, doesn't it?

Sounds like TO, but how does it do that?

Multiple applications of Enlarge Breath (you can't use your Breath Weapon for a year afterwards, but you can cover any plane of existence the size of Earth in acid). Add in Clinging and Lingering Breath for auto-kill on every commoner in the area.

 :rollseyes :lmao :banghead
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

McPoyo

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #63 on: October 27, 2010, 05:33:48 PM »
Level 1 dragonfire adept burns the world to death, doesn't it?

Sounds like TO, but how does it do that?

Multiple applications of Enlarge Breath (you can't use your Breath Weapon for a year afterwards, but you can cover any plane of existence the size of Earth in acid). Add in Clinging and Lingering Breath for auto-kill on every commoner in the area.

 :rollseyes :lmao :banghead
Or swap the Clinging for Entangling. Same deal.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
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[/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #64 on: October 27, 2010, 05:34:38 PM »
You still have LOE issues, right?  I'm pretty sure breath weapons aren't spreads.  So your cone/line isn't going to hit anything beyond the horizon

Not nearly as effective in practice as in theory.  
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 05:36:31 PM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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Sinfire Titan

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #65 on: October 27, 2010, 05:39:51 PM »
You still have LOE issues, right?  I'm pretty sure breath weapons aren't spreads.  So your cone/line isn't going to hit anything beyond the horizon

Not nearly as effective in practice as in theory.  

IIRC, the RC rules them as spreads. Even if they aren't, covering the surface of half a plane of existence with acid is fairly broken if you are going for kill count.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #66 on: October 27, 2010, 06:02:15 PM »
You can't get a half, though.  I mean, I guess your attack keeps shooting out into space, but there's nothing relevant living there, and you're definitely not going to cover half a universe with a cone.  Certainly less than a sixth.

Even a hundred feet up, you've only really got twelve miles of range, since the planet's between you and the target.
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McPoyo

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #67 on: October 27, 2010, 06:20:54 PM »
Largely irrelevant. It lasts forever, sitting there eating away. The only thing left would be pockets of adamantine and oburium, and force effects, since everything else would eventually succumb to the acid damage, despite hardness. Eventually it'll burn through everything.

And assuming it doesn't follow DnD rules and circular curvature of planets is irrelevant at that point, it would effect 1/8th of the plane, as it's a cone.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #68 on: October 27, 2010, 06:23:27 PM »
Well, it doesn't constantly recalculate range.  So if I have an expanded&extendedx9001 breath weapon, and use it standing in front of a wall of paper, the paper will stop LoE and protect everything behind it forever.
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Bauglir

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #69 on: October 27, 2010, 06:56:13 PM »
Incidentally, how does showing that 3.5 characters are more powerful than pathfinder ones show that pathfinder failed at rebalancing the game? If anything, it shows the opposite (it doesn't, but that's the only thing it could even SUPPORT).
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #70 on: October 27, 2010, 07:15:26 PM »
The goal is to show they can't build characters with their mechanics and thus do not understand their mechanics, or mechanics in general. Proving they failed at balance is much simpler. Make an all caster team. Rejoice in all the buffs. Steamroll encounter after encounter effortlessly until you get bored and abandon the system. As this can and has been done by at least one person already there's no point in rehashing it other than to hit the talking points, such as +60 HP for Wizards and +40 HP for Clerics and Druids, still having plenty of save or lose spells, the things that counter you are nerfed... and meanwhile non casters get nerfed hard.

Alternately don't make an all caster party. Watch the non casters get slaughtered repeatedly, just like unoptimized 3.5 characters would, except without the possibility to make them stop sucking. Eventually either the DM will catch on and drop the game like a girl he found out likes donkeyshows a bit too much or the DM will start fudging every other roll just to "Make his campaign have less character deaths than a blind playthrough of I Wanna Be the Guy".

Oh and Pathfinder put a Revivify+ in their core rules. You don't do that unless you expect people to die early and often. Fine if you're running a hardmode campaign where encounters start at CR + 2 and go up from there. Not fine if you're assuming the normal, baseline campaign will kill people so fucking much they'd actually need in combat rezing. That means you need to fix your classes so people are actually at par with the baseline. Too much to ask of drunken monkeys, I know.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

JaronK

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #71 on: October 27, 2010, 07:27:08 PM »
The goal is to show they can't build characters with their mechanics and thus do not understand their mechanics, or mechanics in general.

You'd have to first prove they were trying to build strong characters.  Obviously they can build characters with their mechanics... they did.  They just weren't that strong.  But if they weren't trying to make really powerful characters, then you haven't proved their characters were in any way a failure. 

It's like saying "hey look, the 727 can't break mach 1, so that means Boeing doesn't understand avionics."  But since the 727 was never intended to do that, that makes no sense... it would only be true if that was Boeing's intent.

I mean, Pathfinder completely failed to properly balance anything.  That was the one thing I hoped they might do and they didn't.  This is true.  I mean, they required two feats for Improved Trip and nerfed Power Attack without making any significant nerfs to casters (except perhaps Druids).  But your experiment here is flawed.

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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #72 on: October 27, 2010, 07:56:48 PM »
have to agree with JaronK here.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #73 on: October 27, 2010, 08:10:12 PM »
Because they were demonstrating the mechanics of their game by proxy of the iconics. That not only means you have to demonstrate your own understanding of those mechanics to make a good character, but you have to convince people to switch. How do you get people to buy a 3.5 splatbook (and let's face it, that's what it is despite the pretentious claims to the contrary)?

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There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

McPoyo

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #74 on: October 27, 2010, 08:11:37 PM »
Money shots
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #75 on: October 27, 2010, 08:15:57 PM »
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #76 on: October 27, 2010, 08:23:19 PM »
have to agree with JaronK here.
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #77 on: October 27, 2010, 08:28:00 PM »
Great Fluff.  It certainly isn't power creep, since 3.5 core books are the most broken of the lot.
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Mixster

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #78 on: October 27, 2010, 08:38:57 PM »
The goal is to show they can't build characters with their mechanics and thus do not understand their mechanics, or mechanics in general.

You'd have to first prove they were trying to build strong characters.  Obviously they can build characters with their mechanics... they did.  They just weren't that strong.  But if they weren't trying to make really powerful characters, then you haven't proved their characters were in any way a failure. 

It's like saying "hey look, the 727 can't break mach 1, so that means Boeing doesn't understand avionics."  But since the 727 was never intended to do that, that makes no sense... it would only be true if that was Boeing's intent.

I mean, Pathfinder completely failed to properly balance anything.  That was the one thing I hoped they might do and they didn't.  This is true.  I mean, they required two feats for Improved Trip and nerfed Power Attack without making any significant nerfs to casters (except perhaps Druids).  But your experiment here is flawed.

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awaken DM golem

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #79 on: October 27, 2010, 08:44:49 PM »
I recall a PF boost, that lets Sorcs trade Skill Points for spells.
Really.
Sorc 1 with Versatile stuff / Rogue maybe Feat Rogue 2 with lots of Int.
trade a whole bunch of those skill points