Author Topic: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).  (Read 12636 times)

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Sunic_Flames

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Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« on: October 25, 2010, 04:33:52 PM »
Your opponents are here.

Specifically you are fighting this:

Fighter 14.
Sorcerer 10.
Ranger 11.
Cleric 8.
Paladin 13.
Bard 8.
Druid 8.
Monk 8.
Barbarian 17.
Rogue 6.

They are all exactly as written in their iconic entries.

Your goal is simple. Kill them all, one at a time with the lowest level character possible (who must be less than level 10, to make it somewhat interesting). Then kill them all at once with the lowest level character possible (who must be less than level 13, also to make it interesting).

You are allowed to use any 3.5 WotC material. 32 PB, standard wealth rules. PF material is not allowed, part of the goal here is to demonstrate its inferiority to the thing it replaced. Refrain from any TO material. It's not necessary anyways. To determine results, use weighted averages. An attack that does 100 damage with 80% accuracy does 80 weighted damage.

You are considered to receive XP for defeating them using the standard 3.5 rules. If this XP would cause you to level up and you are fighting them one at a time, you can rest and recover spells at this time. I am very much aware that most characters can rest whenever they want. Let's be honest. It's not necessary to 5 minute workday these clowns. Obviously, you also gain all the other benefits of leveling. If you are fighting them all at once you must complete the battle on one tank. Not that this should be a problem either.

In addition, if fighting them one at a time they will appear in the order of lowest to highest level.

I'll start us off by positing that this level 9.5 character would have no trouble destroying them in sequence. Taking them all at once is likely not possible at this level. You can probably easily do better though.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

archangel.arcanis

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2010, 04:36:49 PM »
can't view your 9.5 character.
Clerics and Druids are like the 4 and 2 in 42. Together they are the answer to the ultimate question in D&D.
Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2010, 04:44:33 PM »
WTF... I don't see a way for any of them to detect an invisible creature... So:

1) Greater Invis + Alter Self (or Fly, whatever)

2) Solid Fog

3) Black Tentacles

4) Vortex of Teeth

(stealing InnaBinder's combo he TPKd the party he was DMing here. :D )

If any of them actually get out of that maelstrom of death, kill them however you want, as they have no means of detecting you at all, except for Listen checks. I guess the sorcerer might Dispel you if she gets lucky, also. So get a Ring of Counterspells (or 3).

So a level 7 wizard should be able to TPK the whole group at once, if they can ambush them and catch them all within a 40 foot diameter sphere.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 04:47:23 PM by PhaedrusXY »
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

archangel.arcanis

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2010, 04:48:37 PM »
Am I blind I don't see any sheets on these guys in the link, and it takes some looking just to find their story boards.

Phaedrus I was about to comment on your combo looking rather familiar then you had had to go and put up the source. Very entertaining though.
Clerics and Druids are like the 4 and 2 in 42. Together they are the answer to the ultimate question in D&D.
Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren

Nunkuruji

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2010, 04:56:41 PM »
So a level 7 wizard's familiar should be able to TPK the whole group at once, if they can ambush them and catch them all within a 40 foot diameter sphere, while the wizard sips his afternoon tea.

Fixed?  :lol

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2010, 04:57:37 PM »
Am I blind I don't see any sheets on these guys in the link, and it takes some looking just to find their story boards.

Phaedrus I was about to comment on your combo looking rather familiar then you had had to go and put up the source. Very entertaining though.

Well they should be in there, but it's also an old link.

Notables include the Fighter being a TWFer, the Cleric being a healbot with some weak fire abilities, and the Paladin being completely specialized to defeat an ice devil but would lose to one every time. Despite being the same level. Oh and the Sorcerer is an evoker. Even the Druid manages to fail at life. Seriously, how the fuck do you manage that? The Barbarian is half decent, mostly due to being much higher level than anything permitted in the challenge. But for the most part these clowns will be doing about 20 a hit, if that.

The only thing to keep in mind with the Binder combo is that Pathfailure makes maneuvers not succeed. Which means Black Tentacles gets some fail in its win. And try looking at the sheet now, it somehow got set to private.
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If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

archangel.arcanis

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2010, 05:06:34 PM »
I can see the sheet now.

Off the top of my head I would think a Raptorian of lvl 5+ should work on negating all of the melee types, toss on a ring of invisibility and just find indirect ways to kill them. I don't know a few holding bags full of boulders and just say empty. Hell I could probably pull that off as Raptorian commoner 5 and chicken infested just dropping chickens while I fly around trying to get my house keys out of my pocket  :lmao
Clerics and Druids are like the 4 and 2 in 42. Together they are the answer to the ultimate question in D&D.
Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren

fuinjutsu

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2010, 05:11:49 PM »
WTF... I don't see a way for any of them to detect an invisible creature... So:

Pixie with Shape Soulmeld: Dissolving Spittle.

If you want more damage, a few levels of rogue, craven, and Bonus Essentia should bring the damage per round up significantly.
Eh, the wizard have more money than them combined, he could in theory just use all his money on a fleet of trained attack mules, but then we aren't playing 3.5 but zergling rushing in Starcraft instead.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2010, 05:12:08 PM »
I don't think a level 5 would be able to do it in the way you describe. Normal WBL rules, remember? The Ring of Invisibility is too expensive by itself.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 05:13:45 PM by Sunic_Flames »
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2010, 05:14:42 PM »
The only thing to keep in mind with the Binder combo is that Pathfailure makes maneuvers not succeed. Which means Black Tentacles gets some fail in its win. And try looking at the sheet now, it somehow got set to private.
I thought I got to use 3.5 rules, though... Anyway, replace that with Solid Fog + Sleet Storm, then, and maybe throw in a Stinking Cloud and/or Cloudkill for fun. They'll probably all still die, it will just take longer, and the wizard might need to be 9th if he can't use a scroll for the Cloudkill.

I did see one pair of Winged Boots in there (on the 17th level barbarian), though. So she might get out... at least until you Dispel her boots, at watch her fall back in.  :lol
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

archangel.arcanis

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2010, 05:17:49 PM »
I don't think a level 5 would be able to do it in the way you describe. Normal WBL rules, remember? The Ring of Invisibility is too expensive by itself.
Yeah I was just speaking in generalities. I'll come up with something specific soon.
Clerics and Druids are like the 4 and 2 in 42. Together they are the answer to the ultimate question in D&D.
Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2010, 05:29:28 PM »
The only thing to keep in mind with the Binder combo is that Pathfailure makes maneuvers not succeed. Which means Black Tentacles gets some fail in its win. And try looking at the sheet now, it somehow got set to private.
I thought I got to use 3.5 rules, though... Anyway, replace that with Solid Fog + Sleet Storm, then, and maybe throw in a Stinking Cloud and/or Cloudkill for fun. They'll probably all still die, it will just take longer, and the wizard might need to be 9th if he can't use a scroll for the Cloudkill.

I did see one pair of Winged Boots in there (on the 17th level barbarian), though. So she might get out... at least until you Dispel her boots, at watch her fall back in.  :lol

Hm, point. The winged boots shouldn't be a problem because like you said, Dispel. The spell is only CL 5th or something. As long as it's possible either way, they can't whine.

Another thing to consider is that while Greater Invis has a low duration, once you get things set up you can switch to normal Invis, since you won't need to attack anymore. That's good because 4d8 + 1d6+4 or whatever it is will take a little while to work on the barreled fish. Consider some wall spells around it as well. Not because you need them mind you, but just to build the cook pot for your delicious, delicious XP. :D
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Bozwevial

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2010, 05:46:27 PM »
I think the barbarian also has a ring of freedom of movement, which might be problematic.

archangel.arcanis

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2010, 05:54:07 PM »
Ring of FoM only has cl7 so it shouldn't be any tougher than the boots. It also make sure they take falling damage when falling back to the ground.

I can't seem to get my idea to work at satisfactorily low levels. It takes 6 levels of warlock just to get invisibility at will and going pixie is just cheating. So I think Ph has the best one so far.
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Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2010, 05:54:16 PM »
Level 1 wizard, sell spellbook. Take Spell Mastery (magic missile) and (ray of enfeeblement).

Then buy one wand of Rary's mnemonic enhancer and a few scrolls of greater invisibility.

I'm sure you can guess the rest.

You probably could take a nice juicy 2nd level spell (there are so many!) using Precocious Apprentice, and use all those spell-levels from the wand to pull those out of your arse.

Mmm... Arse-flavored spe--

Wait, what?

Anyway, note this isn't necessarily TO. If the DM knew you were taking on this challenge, he'd probably let you cheese yourself out a little.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 06:15:53 PM by Lycanthromancer »
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[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

redmane

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2010, 06:13:39 PM »
Whisper Gnome + Warlock 2 with Darkness/Spider Climb + Rogue 1 with maxed Hide/MS + Blend into Shadows from DotU + Darkstalker, and you can wipe the floor with all of them at ECL3, individually or in bulk.

Are templates allowed?

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2010, 06:20:21 PM »
Now that I think about it some more, I'd just use the Hi Welcome build, level 6 version.

+17 to hit base + 2 charging + 4 or 5 bard song + any other bonuses (Bull's Strength pre battle, Nature's Favor or Divine Favor via that MIC belt) = +27 or +28 to hit. None of them have anything special for AC.

Damage bonus is 12 or 6 + 4 or 5 bard song + the same other bonuses = 20-21 or 14-15 added to 1d8 dealt 5 times along with 3 DC 21 saves vs dex poison, a trip at +16, and a grapple at +22. All together that's 5d8+102 (5 more on 2nd and subsequent rounds, more with more buffs). Should be an easy one rounder. If it isn't you can drop to hit by up to 6 to get 5 damage a point... and this is without doing things like giving the Fleshraker Leap Attack.

They can get out of this one by invoking Pathfailure rules (which makes trip and grapple stop working, and poison suck) but that's the only way out. And ya know, they're still kinda dead. :lmao

Nothing says I'm better than you like a dinosaur eating your face.

If for some reason they actually get to attack, the dino has an AC of 34 (32 if charging) without buffs and more with them. The Druid atop him is a bit worse off. 23 without buffs (this number can significantly improve). Even so their damage is fail enough you can take a few rounds of it and Lesser Vigor afterwards. The Druid that is. His little friend has more than double his HP. :D

And what templates are you looking at?
« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 06:24:06 PM by Sunic_Flames »
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

archangel.arcanis

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2010, 06:23:33 PM »
well for Hi Welcome you could just let the druid WS into a bird and stay out of the fray except for dropping a spell here and there.
Clerics and Druids are like the 4 and 2 in 42. Together they are the answer to the ultimate question in D&D.
Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2010, 06:26:52 PM »
well for Hi Welcome you could just let the druid WS into a bird and stay out of the fray except for dropping a spell here and there.

True. But nothing says I'm better than you'll ever be than riding the dino who is presently eating your face.

Also, there's a Bard on the ground with this method. They could kill him pretty easily, but it wouldn't help because the song will last 5 more rounds anyways (that, and the lower ones don't do enough damage to even take a Bard 4 out in one turn... by the time the higher ones show up, he'll be more durable).

I haven't ran it through an encounter calculator but by the time the Barbarian shows up Hi Welcome will be level 12 or something. Level 12 Druid vs level 17 Pathfailure Barbarian. No contest, Druid wins.

By the way if someone can dig out the statblocks, I'll put them in the OP.
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Tshern

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Re: Optimization 'challenge' (yeah right).
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2010, 06:50:31 PM »
Can you create new animals for this? I mean, couldn't you make a Warbeast Chaos Roc or something and send it to kill everyone?

Edit: Assuming you're allowed to buy those. Handle animal might do it, too.

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