No-magic Archer Build

[MrBumberdumble]

Pretty simple.  I'm just looking for a couple build recommendations for a magic-free archer build.  Either a sniper/sneak attack type, or a volley/many attack type archer.  Race must be human, must be a bow user (no thrown weapons or crossbows), 3.5 books only, no flaws.  Thanks in advance.

[archangel.arcanis]

What level? Also realize that without magic items you are completely screwed beyond the first few levels.

[jameswilliamogle]

Some combination of Rogue, Fighter, and Nightsong Enforcer might be a good way to go.  Maybe Exotic Weapon Master with the Greatbow or something.

PBS, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Many Shot, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Improved Precise Shot...  Carnivore's put a lot of effort into this sort of thing.  But, yeah, you'll get screwed without magic equipment by anything with DR (DR kills most multiattack types).  For example, you'd have to hit with about 84 arrows to kill a CR 1 zombie before getting Weapon Specialization.

Races of the Wild has some pretty slick equipment that isn't magical (specialty arrows and such).

[RobbyPants]

I'd say a straight fighter can pull it off okay, possibly with a bit of ranger if you want.  You'll need Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot at a minimum, and Rapid Shot or Far Shot can be handy too.  Weapon Focus will let you hit more often.

Once you get to about level 4, consider quitting the game or rolling up a new character.  Without magic or magic items, you'll quickly fall behind after this point.

[PhaedrusXY]

Mounted Archery is a decent and often overlooked fighting style, IMO. You can make full attacks from the back of a mount running at full speed, and all you take is a penalty which is mostly negated by the Mounted Archery feat. With (Greater) Manyshot, you can ready an attack action that can do enough damage to quite likely disrupt most spellcasters, also. You'll need a way to keep a level appropriate mount, but Leadership can take care of that in a "non-magical" way. You won't be doing spectacular damage with this character, but you can be decent at harassing enemy spellcasters.

And don't even start saying anything about Windwall. You're on a friggin flying mount by the time anyone can cast that (or soon after). So a flat, vertical plane is trivial to bypass, and you can make full attacks after moving. So it isn't a real defense against this kind of archer.

If you don't mind a few paladin levels, the drakkensteed mount ACF basically gives you a dragon as a mount, at level 4. It doesn't even really require you to trade out anything for it either (a mostly useless ability). So you could be riding on a flying mount before Wind Wall even comes onto the scene.

[snakeman830]

Useful equipment:

Serpentstongue Arrows: deals Slashing and Piercing damage, deals full damage to objects with Hardness 5 or less.  Otherwise, normal arrows.
Serrenwood: Anything made out of it is considered Ghost Touch.  Laugh as your DM gets frustrated with you shooting Ghosts without any magic at all.


Or, you could always go VOP Soulbow.  No spellcasting, manifesting, or magic items, but you can at least contribute for a bit longer than as a straight mundane.  After level 7 or so, purely mundane characters don't exist.  They all died before then.

[MrBumberdumble]

Ok some more info.

Magic items will be introduced, and we can request magic items from the DM, but there are no guarantees that any specific items will be made available.

What about if a couple levels of a magic user were introduced?

My concern is that my friend won't want to dip all over the place (I'm trying to help him out with his character), and he wants a magic-free build, if it's feasible.  If it's not, I might be able to convince him that the character isn't viable without incorporating arcane magic. 

I should have been more clear.  The campaign itself isn't free of magic, it will just be difficult to acquire specific magic items, and my friend is trying to avoid a magic user if possible.

[RobbyPants]

Phaedrus, the mount idea is a nice one, if you get good wide battlefields.  Of course, mounts carry a lot of the same restrictions that make Frank hate centaurs (namely, the DM needing to make the entire world mount-accessible).

Of course, a flying mount can get places that a non-flying one can't, but you still need a lot of space to make this work.  Dungeons are pretty much out.

[MrBumberdumble]

Phaedrus, the mount idea is a nice one, if you get good wide battlefields.  Of course, mounts carry a lot of the same restrictions that make Frank hate centaurs (namely, the DM needing to make the entire world mount-accessible).

Of course, a flying mount can get places that a non-flying one can't, but you still need a lot of space to make this work.  Dungeons are pretty much out.

This is actually my concern with mounts.  Dungeons.  There were most likely be a lot of dungeon crawling, so mount-centered builds aren't viable.

[archangel.arcanis]

Since it will likely be a lot of dungeon crawling I would say go primarily rogue. If possible get the feat from Drow of the underdark (it is rapid reload and weapon focus for the hand crossbow in 1 feat). Now use stealth capabilities to get your enemy flat footed and TWF hand crossbows to sneak attack the hell out of them.

Get crossbow sniper as well to add more damage to your crossbows. If possible get the splitting and force enchantments on both weapons. I would also get some wands of grave strike (cleric 1 Spell compendium) and golem strike (wiz 1 SC) to allow sneak attacks on those monsters as well.

[PhaedrusXY]

Phaedrus, the mount idea is a nice one, if you get good wide battlefields.  Of course, mounts carry a lot of the same restrictions that make Frank hate centaurs (namely, the DM needing to make the entire world mount-accessible).

Of course, a flying mount can get places that a non-flying one can't, but you still need a lot of space to make this work.  Dungeons are pretty much out.

This is actually my concern with mounts.  Dungeons.  There were most likely be a lot of dungeon crawling, so mount-centered builds aren't viable.

Neither are archers, then, IMO.

[jameswilliamogle]

Dungeon crawling kind of sucks for bow and arrow users, anyways, so I think your friend will have to just get used to it.  No need to PrC if you don't need to.  I'd try this:

Ranger 2 / Fighter 18
Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot (is free), Manyshot, Improved Precise Shot, Woodland Archer, Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec, Greater Weapon Spec, Defensive Archery, Piercing Shot (one of my favorites), Ranged Weapon Mastery, Far Shot (I think that if there is any concern about dungeon crawling, delay this feat), Weapon Supremacy (is hilarious)

[MrBumberdumble]

Phaedrus, the mount idea is a nice one, if you get good wide battlefields.  Of course, mounts carry a lot of the same restrictions that make Frank hate centaurs (namely, the DM needing to make the entire world mount-accessible).

Of course, a flying mount can get places that a non-flying one can't, but you still need a lot of space to make this work.  Dungeons are pretty much out.

This is actually my concern with mounts.  Dungeons.  There were most likely be a lot of dungeon crawling, so mount-centered builds aren't viable.

Neither are archers, then, IMO.

Very true. 

[MrBumberdumble]

Dungeon crawling kind of sucks for bow and arrow users, anyways, so I think your friend will have to just get used to it.  No need to PrC if you don't need to.  I'd try this:

Ranger 2 / Fighter 18
Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot (is free), Manyshot, Improved Precise Shot, Woodland Archer, Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec, Greater Weapon Spec, Defensive Archery, Piercing Shot (one of my favorites), Ranged Weapon Mastery, Far Shot (I think that if there is any concern about dungeon crawling, delay this feat), Weapon Supremacy (is hilarious)

Do you think this would be an improvement over going with the OotBI PrC?

[PhaedrusXY]

OotBI is a terrible PrC. Yes, even straight fighter is an improvement over it.

[RobbyPants]

Neither are archers, then, IMO.

Yeah, if you typically have less space available than what it takes to charge to you, then it really sucks.  About your best bet is to carry a chair around with you and hope your DM uses a literal reading of the charge rules and doesn't apply common sense.

OotBI is a terrible PrC. Yes, even straight fighter is an improvement over it.

Wasn't OotBI a better PrC back in 3.0?  I haven't looked at it in years.  If so, see if your DM will allow that.

[jameswilliamogle]

It was AWESOME in 3.0.  I've heard stories.

[PhaedrusXY]

It was AWESOME in 3.0.  I've heard stories.

The enhancement bonus also stacked on arrows and bows back then, though, which made archers a LOT better overall (especially cleric archers ).

[MrBumberdumble]

What about going a ranged sneak attack optimized build?

[Phoenix00]

Feats
Knowledge Devotion up to +5 Attack and +5 Damage
Power Attack (Needed for Prerequisite)
Iron Will (Needed for Prerequisite)
Lady's Gambit (Requires Power Attack and Iron Will), Sacrifice 20 Hit Points do up to +10 Attack and +10 Damage

While it is a Magic Weapon get a Hank's Energy Bow as one of the few magic items you can request
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a
2d6, Force Effects so they bypass DR, Power Shot, Do a -20 to hit and now you are doing +20 to Damage

Also while it is a magic weapon effect see if you can get splitting around level 11 to 12.