Author Topic: Help with a Gish build  (Read 4617 times)

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Lobo6717

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Help with a Gish build
« on: October 20, 2010, 05:37:23 PM »
Howdy all

I was looking through a few posts here and the playground and got a few ideas for a build.

It's currently planned as a Human Paladin (Sentinel) 2/Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 4/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 9

More detail in the spoiler
[spoiler][/spoiler]

A couple questions:

Is taking the Stalwart Sorcerer and Battle Sorcerer worth it?  I lose out on quite a few Spells per day and Spells known.  Just wanted to get general impressions.

What do people think of the Improved Critical/Power Critical?  I was thinking of focusing on a scythe.  I know I could try to get a keen scythe, but specific magic weapons seem hard to come by with my DM.

Are there any other comments or thoughts about this build?

Thanks for your help.

For reference, the DM allows pretty much all of the splats and dragon magazines, but not so much the campaign specific books.  He also allows some 3.0 books, like the AEG Feats book.

jameswilliamogle

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Re: Help with a Gish build
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2010, 05:50:54 PM »
Critical Focus generally isn't really worth it, but just having Keen on your weapon might be OK.  Improved Initiative is almost always the accepted way to go for that first level of Eldritch Knight (unless something tricky is being attempted, like dipping 2 levels of Arcane Archer or similar).

As far as Gishs go, I'm not an expert, but this looks like an older version of the generic Gish that people use today.  There's got to be something better than Eldritch Knight (even if it means dipping a few PrCs). 

The first thing I thought of when I took a second look at the build and progression, though: why are you trying to force a build using arcane when divine can do it so much more easily?  This is a Divine Metamagic: Persistant build but losing all its feats to make it arcane.  I really don't think its worth it.

Epimetheus

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Re: Help with a Gish build
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2010, 07:14:37 PM »
I thought you had to have 3rd lvl spells to use Arcane Strike (CW?), so check that again.

Battle Sorcerer is saddening exactly because of the lost slots and spells known. It unfortunately gets dragged all the way up through all the prestige classes too. The lost slots don't synergize well with Arcane Strike, although the lost spells known will cause you to use arcane strike more often. Hm. But since Battle Sorcerer gets you into Abjurant Champion as soon as possible, that is a good thing, I guess.

kurashu

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Re: Help with a Gish build
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2010, 08:15:29 PM »
Are you familiar with Tome of Battle? Because Crusader/Jade Phoenix Mage in place of Paladin/Eldritch Knight is awesome.

Sorcerer 4/Crusader 2/Abjurant Champion 4/Jade Phoenix Mage 9/Abjurant Champion +1.

BAB: 18 CL: 18 (8th level spells) IL: 15.5 (8th level maneuvers)

Take the Divine Champion alternate class feature in Complete Champion. Gain a +20 deflection bonus to AC for 20 rounds? Yes, just buy a wand of magic missile or something (and take practiced spell caster, too).

Or, be a kobold. Not having dragon archetypes hurts, but it's no worry. Just saying.

juton

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Re: Help with a Gish build
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2010, 08:51:48 PM »
You get a nice high BAB from your build, your class should function well as a Fighter. As for the caster side of things, as others have mentioned Battle Sorcerer sacrifices a bit too much if you are allowed prestige classes. If you where taking more levels of Sorcerer then Stalwart Sorcerer would be worth it, as is you'll only end up with 8 extra hitpoints.

So I'd suggest:
Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/SpellSword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 8

You end up with an 18 BAB and can cast as a 17th level Sorcerer.

Feats
Using a Scythe can work out well, but instead of improved critical I'd recommend Craft Magic Weapon (so you can add keen on the cheap) if your campaign will have enough off-time for crafting. I wouldn't recommend Persistent Spell unless you use some way to decrease its cost, in this build you only get 7th level slots around level 17. Arcane Strike will work well with this build, so it's a good choice.

Caelic

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Re: Help with a Gish build
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2010, 09:05:50 PM »
The big problem I see here is staying power.  Eldritch Knight is flimsy, with d6 hit points; you can dish it out, but you're going to have problems taking it.

Consequently, I'd strongly suggest investing in Minor Shapeshift, from Complete Mage.  The ability to grant yourself temporary hit points equal to your character level each round as a swift action will go a LONG way towards making you sturdier, and will help you take full advantage of your available actions (since it's unlikely you'll be tossing swift abjurations EVERY round.)

raith0

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Re: Help with a Gish build
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2010, 09:22:09 PM »
try reading this http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8786.0
sorry (not really) for the shamless plug.

Battle Sorcerer is a trap.  yes it can give you a few extra points of BAB but for a very heavy cost. 
if you want to be a sorcerer based gish you were better off adding 2 levels of Stalwart Sorcerer and then going all 5 levels of Abjurant Champion.  i would stay away from EK since you cant afford the caster level loss.  i would try something more along the lines  of  Spellsword or if you are playing a dwarf runesmith is great. 

some level choices will all depend on if you think you will run into AMF's alot or not.  if you arent then you can skip a touch on your BAB because your going to be using arcane strike and casting wraith strike.  you may lose a bit on power attack damage but you will be able to buff yourself to great strengths. 

i like the paladin level dip and it gives you a great reason to use Luminouse Armor to greater effect as well with the Abjurant Champion in the mix.

Ron

ninjarabbit

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Re: Help with a Gish build
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2010, 09:26:10 PM »
The standard sorcadin build is paladin2/sorcerer4/spellsword1/abjurantchampion5/sacredexorcist8

16 BAB, 18 CL for 9th level spells, turn undead for fueling divine feats like divine might.

Note that spellsword has all knowledge skills as class skills, otherwise you could take knowledge devotion for knowledge (the planes).

Lobo6717

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Re: Help with a Gish build
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2010, 10:59:45 PM »
The standard sorcadin build is paladin2/sorcerer4/spellsword1/abjurantchampion5/sacredexorcist8

16 BAB, 18 CL for 9th level spells, turn undead for fueling divine feats like divine might.

Note that spellsword has all knowledge skills as class skills, otherwise you could take knowledge devotion for knowledge (the planes).

I had been toying with that and think I am leaning that way after everybody's inputs here

feats:
1: Power Attack
HB: Improved Initiative
3: Combat Casting
6: ?
9: Arcane Strike
12: Craft Magic Arms & Armor
15: Dragon Familiar (Silver)
16: ?

Thoughts on the feats?
If I were to take minor shapeshift, should I bump craft?
Maybe take acidic splatter at 6?



Are you familiar with Tome of Battle? Because Crusader/Jade Phoenix Mage in place of Paladin/Eldritch Knight is awesome.

Sorcerer 4/Crusader 2/Abjurant Champion 4/Jade Phoenix Mage 9/Abjurant Champion +1.

BAB: 18 CL: 18 (8th level spells) IL: 15.5 (8th level maneuvers)

Take the Divine Champion alternate class feature in Complete Champion. Gain a +20 deflection bonus to AC for 20 rounds? Yes, just buy a wand of magic missile or something (and take practiced spell caster, too).

Or, be a kobold. Not having dragon archetypes hurts, but it's no worry. Just saying.

Sadly, I am very familiar with ToB, but my DM is one of the many who feels that it is overpowered and has therefore banned it.  I guess I blocked it mentally, so forgot to mention it in the first post



I thought you had to have 3rd lvl spells to use Arcane Strike (CW?), so check that again.

Battle Sorcerer is saddening exactly because of the lost slots and spells known. It unfortunately gets dragged all the way up through all the prestige classes too. The lost slots don't synergize well with Arcane Strike, although the lost spells known will cause you to use arcane strike more often. Hm. But since Battle Sorcerer gets you into Abjurant Champion as soon as possible, that is a good thing, I guess.

Wow, I hadn't realized that.. Thanks!  I was using the feat list from crystal keep, and it failed to mention that prereq

SorO_Lost

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Re: Help with a Gish build
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2010, 02:50:45 AM »
It is always sad to hear when someone bans the ToB :(

Can you pick Steel for your dragon familiar?
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Eldariel

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Re: Help with a Gish build
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2010, 06:53:42 AM »
Sacred Exorcist gives you turning. You have Power Attack. Pick up Divine Might; with your Charisma it's gonna be pretty damn brutal (Cha+3 times per day, you get to add Cha to damage for one round) and it's a free action to boot. Arcane Strike with Power Attack & Divine Might = boom boom. Also, Rapid Metamagic and Quicken Spell would be really nice. That or Extend Spell. Quicken won't be necessary if you pick up Arcane Spellsurge [Dragon Magic] and preferably switch to a Dragonblood race like Silverbrow Human (loses just skill/level).
« Last Edit: October 21, 2010, 06:58:19 AM by Eldariel »

Endarire

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Re: Help with a Gish build
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2010, 07:14:28 PM »
For a less traditional gish build, try a Trancer Hood.
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"