Author Topic: Lowest level for two tier 1's to Destroy an entire major metropolis's Industry?  (Read 9939 times)

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archangel.arcanis

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By level 3 or so your Artificer can make Eternal Wands of Explosive Runes.  Place these runes in hidden locations around the city, and blow them up with an intentionally failed dispel magic (also off an Eternal Wand) when you have enough to destroy whatever they're on.  That ought to do the trick.

JaronK

Me and a friend had a similar goal as a Sorceror Druid combo (many fewer options though).  We were just going to post them and let people read the "flyers".  The problem is any intelligent populace would stop reading them after they started blowing up.

Of course our enemy only had a 7th level wizard, and our main goal was to steal a warship.  I wanted to just smash it with warp wood, but the damn thing was magical.

So the solution was obvious:  as big of a Cloudkill as possible.  All the commoners in the area will simply die.  Its pretty big strike against their labor force, especially if you target the thick residential areas.
Fairly certain that violates the NOT EVIL portion of his request.
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Gavinfoxx

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Well... if the only way to guarantee this industry to stop forever more is an evil action, this can be her very large step to True Neutral, or maybe down to Neutral Evil, to eventually work her way back up to True Neutral at best?

I dunnooo.... as best as I can tell, this is the *single* most polluting city on Toril... that has to count for something...

Would replacing their iron industry with a Bronzewood / Bluewood' farming and alchemy industry, and the forges instead with metal melt / wall of iron / shape metal / fabricate, maybe with some permanent wondrous architecture thing that does those spells fairly regularly, and pollution free, and can do many of those effects each day, be the only 'good' way of stopping this?  And with some elementals to clean up the air pollution?  Presumably affecting the power brokers with a large amount of Diplomacy?

Also Artificer needs to be level SIX to make Eternal Wands, and level TEN to make Schema.

Can anyone help me write up a piece of wondrous architecture that can be used instead of a polluting forge? Presumably some item that can cast Wall of Iron once every few days, and very specifically targeted Metal Melts (a few times a day), and Minor Creation (maybe a few times a day) to create temporary wooden molds for the Metal Melt, and also very targeted Shape Metal (again, a few times a day), and a skill or crafting enhancing spell or two, with Fabricate to finish the items off?
« Last Edit: October 18, 2010, 04:23:46 PM by Gavinfoxx »
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Epimetheus

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This is just my opinion about the alignments.

Improving the technology or disposing of the pollution is the proper way to deal with the situation for 'good people'. Diplomacy helps.

Shutting down the industry at any cost, regardless of who dies, who gets hurt, and who suffers is 'evil'. It doesn't matter if the pollution is really bad; evil people can still have righteous goals. (Like Light from Death Note.)

You can still be neutrally aligned while doing either of these though. But neutral aligned people are generally selfish or have no strong opinions. This one would be the selfish version, so that'd have to play out in whatever option you take. (again, just my opinion on the neutral alignment). For example, to make the former strategy less 'good', you could emphasize what YOU believe to be right. And to make the latter strategy less evil, you could WARN everyone first and stay behind later to clean up the aftermath.


Anyway, I like the idea of a pollution disposal machine. Spell Research might help for that too, as I don't know if any spells directly deal with pollutants.

JaronK

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Where is this city located?  A well placed Decanter of Endless Water might be able to create a lake above it, and then you could tunnel out a path to the city and flood it.  It wouldn't happen too fast so people could evacuate but it could shut things down for quite a while.

JaronK

Etarran

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Most of these solutions are vastly underestimating the resilience of a large city's industry, even if you assume that the city's casters have not been taking steps to deal with this kind of thing. Minor terrorist actions like planting some explosive runes around the place will serve to do little other than get your characters hunted down and killed - and likely the city's military and industrial factions will use your actions as an excuse to tighten security and cut equipment costs, likely increasing the extent of the problem you are trying to solve.

If you don't wish to solve the problem via the tried and true "Quest until the DM says you win" strategy, and killing everyone in the city is out, your main options are probably economic - providing a cheaper, cleaner alternative to the products the city is producing might work, although if the real world is anything to go by even that is chancy at best, as older, inferior products triumph in marketing over newer, superior products all the time thanks to social inertia.

In that case, your best bet is probably some kind of magical effect that will make industry impossible - something that will render the city uninhabitable non-lethally like constant, pouring rain. A permanent weather control effect might work (Although bear in mind that even that will probably kill hundreds or thousands of people in the ensuing floods, famines, and refugee flight). archangel.arcanis has a good idea with the plant growth, but non-permanent effects will pretty much just be shrugged off (for proof of this, look at how quickly real cities both now and throughout history have recovered from disasters of even truly staggering magnitude) - and if it's something you have to renew, you are likely not to be able to, thanks to retribution from the law.

Bear in mind also that displacing the industry from this city without addressing the underlying economic forces that make this kind of industry profitable is an extremely short-term solution: even if you destroy this city wholesale, demand for those products won't go away, and their manufacture will just move elsewhere. Essentially, the two of you are undertaking the problem that environmental groups worldwide have been struggling with unsuccessfully for some hundred and fifty years. Now, in a game world, you have more tools available to you (the strongest, of course, being the Power of Plot), but if your DM wants to model this action realistically, be prepared to find that there is no instant, easy, one-shot solution.

tl;dr: You need to make the city's industry impossible or clean forever with a single action, or you will accomplish nothing, and historically, the only ways to make industry impossible are to destroy everyone in the city or remove the economic incentive for that industry to exist.

JaronK

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Actually, a few explosions causing tightened security would work... if you did it enough and can wait.  Greater expenses in security are what eventually destroyed the Roman empire after all.  Eventually the city's population becomes so obsessed with security that they devote far too much to it and screw themselves.

Combine this with a competitive start up nearby that does it cleanly and you could easily win this given time.  It's not like it's hard to make non polluting industry.  A permanent Reverse Gravity effect combined with flywheels placed at the edge of the effect (so one side falls up and one side falls down) will provide endless clean energy.  Spell Clocks casting Fabricate or Wall of Stone provides materials and construction.  Even undead workers provide clean labor without costs beyond initial construction (and with Awaken Undead they're intelligent).  Nothing in this requires external energy or light, so build your new city underground with only a few entrances and exits for easy security.   Compete with these foolish polluters who will be spending their money on security and labor and food, and you'll easily win... or they'll compete with you by copying you and you win anyway.

And frankly, I don't think animated undead are that evil if they're saving the environment.

JaronK

Gavinfoxx

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So... I guess the best long term solution is 'remove economic incentive for the industry to exist in it's current form'.

That should be possible, right?

What do you all know about what aspects of metallurgical industry need very very large fires, forges, foundries, kilns, etc? And why they need those?

So what we have to figure out is a cheaper and better way of solving the same economic need (it appears to be, 'weapons and armor') which utterly obsoletes the need for this sort of polluting industry.

My idea was some wondrous architecture thing... looking around, here are some spells it might be good idea to base this thing on / have it be able to cast:

Magecraft
Wieldskill
Wall of Iron
Metal Melt
Minor Creation
Shape Metal
Fabricate

So the idea is: Any normal person walks up to the device.  It activates Magecraft, so now he has some idea of how to craft metal things.  It activates a Wall of Iron in a specific spot.  Then there are a few options for how to do this: use activates Minor Creation to create specific wooden molds for the items, and then use those molds and Metal Melt to create objects.  For larger things, Shape Metal can be done.  For the detailed or high quality work, Wieldskill is used immediately before Fabricate to finish the items off.  I would guess you would need a Wall of Iron 1/week, and the other ones more often, and it would be an immobile architecture...thing, so it would be cheaper than a wondrous item to do this.  How would you guys write this thing up?  Would such a thing obsolete forges and stuff, if there were detailed instructions on how to create it, dispersed broadly?  Is it that you can't make quality steel with just a Wall of Iron? How would you get charcoal or coal or some other carbon to make the steel better, without mining? Would some sort of modified Wall of stone do it?

Edit: I like that flywheel thing, how would you leverage that free energy into doing lots of work that would normally require heat?
« Last Edit: October 18, 2010, 07:20:22 PM by Gavinfoxx »
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JaronK

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What do you all know about what aspects of metallurgical industry need very very large fires, forges, foundries, kilns, etc? And why they need those?

That's the purify the metal and leave only the pure metal later.  But this is a world where you can just summon Walls of Iron for the purpose, and I'd bet Iron is what they want (without electricity Iron is a lot more useful than copper).  You'd still need a little gold for casting Wall of Iron, but with Spell Clocks the Iron pops up free.

A second spell clock uses Fabricate, set by a spellcaster who cast magecraft first so he had high enough skill to make dwarvencraft quality swords (or armor, or whatever).  You can here combine in the carbon you'll need.

If the DM says you still need heat to get the carbon in, use Permament Wall of Fire, and presses powered by gravity fly wheels. 

To use the fly wheels, you can put magnets on them to generate electricity (spinning wheels with magnets or wires on them is exactly how electricity is generated today).  Or you can just directly use the spinning force to power the steel mill, turning the machines via gears and clockwork.

JaronK

Gavinfoxx

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So Spell Clocks, you are talking about these?

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20070312a&dcmp=ILC-RSSDND

And what did you think of my earlier idea? Needlessly complicated?

Also, where would you get carbon from, other than a mine? That would need True Creation, or some carbon version of Wall of Stone?
« Last Edit: October 18, 2010, 07:24:33 PM by Gavinfoxx »
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Epimetheus

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Magic makes everything obsolete at high enough levels. Of course you can make whatever you like to win at that point. And you can even do so while being 'good'.

If we want to be fast (and evil), more options open up. Like the explosive runes, thoqquas, as that's easier. It is, of course, quickly shut down by enemy wizards.

But now that I think about it, wouldn't the mean wizards beat you up for creating your own competing (and undercutting) industry? They might choose to copy you (and they probably can do it better), which would let you achieve your goal. (Diplo would be faster though, as the idea is enough.) The fact that they haven't means that they're purposefully oppressing the lowly commoner factory workers. (as free energy and magical servants mean they don't actually have to pay anybody) After all, what are you supposed to do with all these spells when you're not adventuring? Blow 'em on improving your shiny metropolis 'empire'.

Whatever the case, I'm sure there's going to be some sort of logical inconsistency no matter what happens.

Gavinfoxx

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So what is the lowest level, very cheap, most easily copyable, long term solution for cranking out incredibly cheap mundane items, pollution free, and mostly external input free? Wondrous Items? That Spell Turret from DMG II? Wondrous Architecture? Eternal Wands? Those Spell Clock construct things? Trap rules (shudder!)? House Insignia? Schema? Golems that craft? Homunculi that craft? Permanencied spells? What about that Carbon question?
« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 01:51:37 AM by Gavinfoxx »
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JaronK

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I suppose you could extract carbon by using create food, then burning or crushing the food.  That would be low level.  I think the big issue is the iron... you'll need Wall of Iron for materials.  Power is cheapest (and lowest level) done with Decanters of Endless Water... they provide free clean water and plenty of hydroelectric power.

The big question here is exactly what this place is producing.  I mean, a single Candle of Invocation could give you everything you need easily, but wishing for everything seems cheap.

JaronK

Gavinfoxx

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The big question here is exactly what this place is producing.

Everything that requires very polluting heavy industry, of course! For now, what all those polluting things in Hiyal (or other heavily polluting industries on Toril) make.
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Epimetheus

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This is actually still wrong, but in the reverse direction.

Oversustainable production means that you've eliminated all labor-based industries. Suddenly only casters are necessary and commoners (and maybe all noncasters too) are deemed worthless beings. We don't need farmers, hunters, miners, workers, constructors, etc. Seems like a slippery slope into caster tyranny. Congratulations, you're the new evil!

I am still surprised that all game worlds don't start out like that.

Cragghunter

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Lowest level solution summon mirror mephit  , Artificer can make a scroll of this first level .
This would give you all you need to create a industrial revolution to replace the current one .

Artificer sims for deep discount magic item shop (uses the buyers exp for magic items )
Plane shifting animal and elemental  sims to mine the elemental planes for exotic and mundane material
Spell stitched necropolitan dread necromancers sims for your undead creation
Race spellcasting not tied to hd for creation spells

start a ambrosia factory for the artificer sims to create even more magic items the people are the important ingredient and would give them a purpose/job after there jobs
became obsolete .  

Epimetheus

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They're a dead weight on society. I say we kill 'em off.  :lol

Someone's going to be thinking that at some point.

Benly

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But now that I think about it, wouldn't the mean wizards beat you up for creating your own competing (and undercutting) industry? They might choose to copy you (and they probably can do it better), which would let you achieve your goal. (Diplo would be faster though, as the idea is enough.) The fact that they haven't means that they're purposefully oppressing the lowly commoner factory workers. (as free energy and magical servants mean they don't actually have to pay anybody) After all, what are you supposed to do with all these spells when you're not adventuring? Blow 'em on improving your shiny metropolis 'empire'.

I'm not convinced that the wizards' failure to set up an economy based on Magecraft/Wall of Iron/Fabricate indicates that they're oppressing for the sheer joy of oppressing people. The thing is, there are two ways to make that magic happen on a regular and industrial basis. One is to have an actual live wizard throwing the spells, but a wizard who can cast Fabricate is high enough level to be a Special Dude who is not likely to be thrilled about being your factory drudge, even if he's the shiniest factory drudge in human history.

The other way is magic items. Now, magic items are sustainable, which is nice. The problem is that manufacturing a magic item requires XP. And not just any XP - it requires a wizard's XP. So now your capitalist archmage has a decision to make: he can spend his own lifeforce in sufficient quantities to set up an industrial manufacturing plant, or he can find someone else who is sufficiently skilled to make the necessary items and enough of a chump to spend his own lifeforce to do it instead of working on his own projects... or he can round up a bunch of commoners who are living on a silver piece a month and promise them two whole silver pieces a month to work his filthy forge while he uses his precious XP to forge Rings of Hooker Summoning and Decanters of Endless Blow.

You don't have to be hand-wringing, "I LOVE OPPRESSING PEOPLE" kind of evil to choose option #3. You just have to be a good old-fashioned capitalist jerkass.

The_Mad_Linguist

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The other way is magic items. Now, magic items are sustainable, which is nice. The problem is that manufacturing a magic item requires XP. And not just any XP - it requires a wizard's XP.

Nope!
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KellKheraptis

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They're a dead weight on society. I say we kill 'em off.  :lol

Someone's going to be thinking that at some point.

MY vote still goes to eradication via LCB/Control Weather (Tornado outbreak)/Earthquake.  Gotta make an example, afterall, and as a druid, it's justifiable.  If the arty objects...well, eat him :P
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Benly

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The other way is magic items. Now, magic items are sustainable, which is nice. The problem is that manufacturing a magic item requires XP. And not just any XP - it requires a wizard's XP.

Nope!

Hm, fair enough. In that case you just have to convince them to get their workers to sacrifice their own lifeforce to fuel the machines of industry so that the trees suffer no more.

Because that's a way less evil option.