Author Topic: Was The Party Doomed From The Start?  (Read 25664 times)

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Rejakor

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Re: Was The Party Doomed From The Start?
« Reply #140 on: March 08, 2011, 03:05:10 PM »
@ BI;  The games I have played in where the default response to the GM rolling dice was not 'spread out, draw weapons' were golden, golden examples of fantastic roleplaying.

There are bonuses to hide from being far away, wizards can get all day buffs to hide, it was his island and he could have seen people coming from his hidden tower or whatnot.. I don't think it's unreasonable for him to have a very high hide modifier.

The only bad part is that not seeing him instaraped the party.  But that's more a problem with the Arcane Magic Brand Instarape InnaBinder was using than the fact no-one saw the wizard, at least in my opinion.

Bloody Initiate

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Re: Was The Party Doomed From The Start?
« Reply #141 on: March 08, 2011, 03:33:55 PM »
@ BI;  The games I have played in where the default response to the GM rolling dice was not 'spread out, draw weapons' were golden, golden examples of fantastic roleplaying.

Lol, I'm constantly fascinated by how my group seems to stand well above average on the scales. If we fail a perception check, we act normal. It's not golden fantastic roleplaying, it's just roleplaying. People are bad at stuff and constantly make my team look amazing.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Was The Party Doomed From The Start?
« Reply #142 on: March 08, 2011, 04:27:54 PM »
Sad part is that Sunic is more than willing to have a nice circlejerk on the subject of 'herp derp unoptimized character SHOULD die, all fun other than my fun is wrongbadfun'.

Contrary to Sunic's viewpoint (he must have had some real bad GMs starting out), people who enjoy optimizing will do so regardless of if you kill their characters to 'learn'em good' until they bring something that meets your imaginary 'good enough' bar to the table.  The only point at which lack of optimization is a problem is if they can't build to concept.  I.e. their master swordsman hits less often and less hard than the non-gish bard.  Or their loremaster has very few skillpoints in knowledge skills and nothing that adds to that.  Etc etc.

ITT: RejaFail revives a two month old thread, for no purpose other than to whine and flail about me, for no reason whatsoever other than the fuckwit foaming at the mouth. And also lying, as it was a single simulacrum, and a single CR 20 dragon, who was not optimized at all. For you see, RejaFail could not see the dragon statblock, and I could, and I told the Mister Cavern of that game flat out he's already lost, as any one of the four PCs in that game could solo him. He didn't listen, which led to 2-3 months of everyone's time being wasted, and the MC ragequitting when I was proven right, and him wrong.

The only part of that that is remotely accurate is that gimps are to be culled. This is a fact. After all, someone has to give the real character's XP.

Now Abundant Step away in shame. Real people are talking.
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Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

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Rejakor

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Re: Was The Party Doomed From The Start?
« Reply #143 on: March 09, 2011, 12:28:31 AM »
ITT: RejaFail revives a two month old thread, for no purpose other than to whine and flail about me, for no reason whatsoever other than the fuckwit foaming at the mouth. And also lying, as it was a single simulacrum, and a single CR 20 dragon, who was not optimized at all. For you see, RejaFail could not see the dragon statblock, and I could, and I told the Mister Cavern of that game flat out he's already lost, as any one of the four PCs in that game could solo him. He didn't listen, which led to 2-3 months of everyone's time being wasted, and the MC ragequitting when I was proven right, and him wrong.

The only part of that that is remotely accurate is that gimps are to be culled. This is a fact. After all, someone has to give the real character's XP.

Now Abundant Step away in shame. Real people are talking.

Actually, I was talking about a different dragon.  CR 26 one.  Same cleric, different dragon.  This one was actually optimized, and was quite fun to fight, even if in the end I was just too broken to shit to care about the traps and interdimensional control rooms and crap.  Funnily enough, it died in the exact same way, because I forgot, again, that balors have vorpal weapons.  Chuckles all round, I assure you.

As for posting in this thread... i'm like 99% sure it was on the front page.  And I actually had things to say about the actual thread topic.  My aside about your playstyle was exactly that, an aside, an example to prove a point.

You turning up and flailing about the place doesn't exactly give you many bonus points in the whole 'not being unreasonable' category.

wotmaniac

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Re: Was The Party Doomed From The Start?
« Reply #144 on: March 09, 2011, 12:33:25 AM »
Really?!
He just came back -- no reason to get him riled-up so soon.
.... I was just getting used to the peacefulness.  Oh well -- it was nice while it lasted

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Tenebrus

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Re: Was The Party Doomed From The Start?
« Reply #145 on: March 09, 2011, 12:52:16 AM »
Thread necromancy for a verbal spanking, niftykinky.

Actually, I didn't read the date.  If this wasn't on the first page, I clicked a link in some other topic on the first page, and forgot about that fact in the tabs I have open.  In any case, I apologize for 2 month thread necromancy.
Quote

I don't believe that thread necromancy is bad.  So what if someone new comes in and finds something they want to discuss?

wotmaniac

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Re: Was The Party Doomed From The Start?
« Reply #146 on: March 09, 2011, 10:16:41 AM »
Thread necromancy for a verbal spanking, niftykinky.

Actually, I didn't read the date.  If this wasn't on the first page, I clicked a link in some other topic on the first page, and forgot about that fact in the tabs I have open.  In any case, I apologize for 2 month thread necromancy.

I don't believe that thread necromancy is bad.  So what if someone new comes in and finds something they want to discuss?
I think that the issue was the tone.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2011, 09:08:23 PM by wotmaniac »

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

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Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Was The Party Doomed From The Start?
« Reply #147 on: March 09, 2011, 10:24:26 AM »
ITT: RejaFail revives a two month old thread, for no purpose other than to whine and flail about me, for no reason whatsoever other than the fuckwit foaming at the mouth. And also lying, as it was a single simulacrum, and a single CR 20 dragon, who was not optimized at all. For you see, RejaFail could not see the dragon statblock, and I could, and I told the Mister Cavern of that game flat out he's already lost, as any one of the four PCs in that game could solo him. He didn't listen, which led to 2-3 months of everyone's time being wasted, and the MC ragequitting when I was proven right, and him wrong.

The only part of that that is remotely accurate is that gimps are to be culled. This is a fact. After all, someone has to give the real character's XP.

Now Abundant Step away in shame. Real people are talking.

Actually, I was talking about a different dragon.  CR 26 one.  Same cleric, different dragon.  This one was actually optimized, and was quite fun to fight, even if in the end I was just too broken to shit to care about the traps and interdimensional control rooms and crap.  Funnily enough, it died in the exact same way, because I forgot, again, that balors have vorpal weapons.  Chuckles all round, I assure you.

As for posting in this thread... i'm like 99% sure it was on the front page.  And I actually had things to say about the actual thread topic.  My aside about your playstyle was exactly that, an aside, an example to prove a point.

You turning up and flailing about the place doesn't exactly give you many bonus points in the whole 'not being unreasonable' category.

You and I both know the only reason you posted that is to foam and flail about me, same as you've done in several other places. Why? Because all you ever do nowadays is foam and flail whenever someone sounds even slightly mean, regardless of the actual subject matter or merits of their posts.

Bad liar. Stop lying.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Rejakor

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Re: Was The Party Doomed From The Start?
« Reply #148 on: March 09, 2011, 01:20:00 PM »
I can't control what you 'know', Sunic.  You're the one that does that, not me.

However, from my point of view, I posted in this thread because I had something to say about the topic.  Like i've already said once, I mentioned you as part of a point I made about something different.



More back on topic, the deaths in this game session I would count as 'thematic', especially considering it was a horror game, and it's also an excellent example of eyeballing challenge rating/stats.  The GM in that example not only hedged his bets in case the PCs decided to fight (decided how many adults, how many broodlings etc, after the PCs stated they were going to stand and fight) but gave them a fighting chance (training up NPCs, more powerful than DMG traps) and made it close enough to be utterly epic while still playing intelligent foes who used appropriate tactics and gave no ground.  That's a keen understanding of the players' capabilities and crunch and a keen understanding of both the tactics he was going to use and the raw crunch of the monsters.

InnaBinder

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Re: Was The Party Doomed From The Start?
« Reply #149 on: March 09, 2011, 05:37:26 PM »
Without dealing with a whole play-by-play, I'll point to a particular bit in the example thread Rejakor listed:

Quote
No screens were used or rolls were fudged. The DM swore prior to the main event that the kython forces had the raw numbers (in AC, attack and damage) to kill all of us 4 or 5 times over, and he wasn't kidding. They were played intelligently, savagely, and beautifully in a macabre way. Tricks stopped working on them, I don't think any trap worked on the kythons more than twice.
Emphasis mine.  As I've already said earlier in this thread, one of the site owners (Zeke) and several other posters have put forth that throwing the PCs against forces so overwhelming as to be able "to kill all of us 4 or 5 times over" is bad DMing.  As such, it fails the basic metric of a good example of PC death, since it was fundamentally death by DM fiat.  The DM put that party into a situation that was considerably more skewed than the single Wizard vs Party example in this thread.  To say that the linked situation was somehow 'good' while the one in this thread is somehow 'bad' by virtue of the difficulties presented, or the clues given beforehand, doesn't wash.
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veekie

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Re: Was The Party Doomed From The Start?
« Reply #150 on: March 09, 2011, 09:57:48 PM »
It depends on more than that.
The players, IC and OOC, are apparently aware of what they're going into, and deemed it a suitable way for their story to end. Thats the difference between that, and throwing a TPK encounter as a random one.
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Littha

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Re: Was The Party Doomed From The Start?
« Reply #151 on: March 09, 2011, 10:21:33 PM »
Its all about context, I once had a landslide kill all my players as the introduction to a ghostwalk campaign (only one i will ever run...) just so that I could say "rocks fall, everyone dies". They thought it was awesome. Same with the kython thing, a heroic last stand is a great way to end a campaign.

The problem comes when you TPK without aiming to.

RobbyPants

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Re: Was The Party Doomed From The Start?
« Reply #152 on: March 10, 2011, 09:36:58 AM »
Its all about context, I once had a landslide kill all my players as the introduction to a ghostwalk campaign (only one i will ever run...) just so that I could say "rocks fall, everyone dies". They thought it was awesome. Same with the kython thing, a heroic last stand is a great way to end a campaign.

The problem comes when you TPK without aiming to.
What if they'd rather retire their PCs and have them be bar-owners, or something?  It's still DM fiat.  It's only cool if that's how people want it to end.
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Bloody Initiate

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Re: Was The Party Doomed From The Start?
« Reply #153 on: March 10, 2011, 12:38:48 PM »
Its all about context, I once had a landslide kill all my players as the introduction to a ghostwalk campaign (only one i will ever run...) just so that I could say "rocks fall, everyone dies". They thought it was awesome. Same with the kython thing, a heroic last stand is a great way to end a campaign.

The problem comes when you TPK without aiming to.
What if they'd rather retire their PCs and have them be bar-owners, or something?  It's still DM fiat.  It's only cool if that's how people want it to end.

I think the idea of a heroic last stand is specifically that you are choosing NOT to retire and are instead choosing to use your ability for the good of the world. Also, if there is an approaching force that threatens to doom a large portion of the area in which you operate, isn't it a bit foolish to throw down your sword and pick up an apron? Even if you want to retire your character and become a bartender, the idea is that isn't always a choice you have. You can either run or fight, and running is kinda dumb. You either run as a group, changing the campaign (which is fine) or you run solo and you're an NPC now because your adventures stop mattering when they diverge from those of your group.

It's worth mentioning that players already signed on for the fight decision anyway. It's the same reason that they're a party in the first place, because if they're not then you don't have a game. Who cares about your dreams of owning a bar? It's time for you to play D&D with your friends. You don't start the adventure grounded in reality and your characters pretend motivations, why would you end it that way?
« Last Edit: March 10, 2011, 12:41:41 PM by Bloody Initiate »
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RobbyPants

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Re: Was The Party Doomed From The Start?
« Reply #154 on: March 10, 2011, 01:38:15 PM »
The point is, when Mister Cavern throws a CR +9000 monster at you he is choosing how to end the campaign.
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Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Bloody Initiate

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Re: Was The Party Doomed From The Start?
« Reply #155 on: March 10, 2011, 02:01:25 PM »
...which seems perfectly within his rights as a GM, even if it doesn't speak well of the quality of said GM.
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veekie

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Re: Was The Party Doomed From The Start?
« Reply #156 on: March 10, 2011, 03:23:24 PM »
Remember, a GM is just another player. He just has more work(and thus some privileges to go with it). Ending the game that way does work, and sometimes is exactly what the players want. It just tends to go bad pretty easily.
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[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
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To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

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Rejakor

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Re: Was The Party Doomed From The Start?
« Reply #157 on: March 10, 2011, 04:01:37 PM »
And yet, the players (some of them) lived.  That GM was either lucky, or he perfectly eyeballed his players, the defenses, the usefulness of the 2nd level villagers, and the amount of kythons he would need to make that fight perfect, seat-of-the-pants and could go either way.

Keep in mind that for each of the smart decisions the players made (deploying the hammer, using flyby attack) they made stupid ones (cleric staying in melee range of the slaughterthing, not using cover/defense spells to avoid bone shards/acid globs, not having the noncaster elements of the party flying).

And furthermore, he made it clear that this was a fight he expected the PCs to run away from.  They chose to stay for a last stand anyway.  He literally could not lose.  If they won, it was an epic, glorious, battle that they will talk about for years.  If they lose, it's a heroic sacrifice and he can think of an interesting way to keep the campaign going.  Either way, GM wins.

In your example, the clues given were presented as 'tentacles out of the ground'.  And your players were not 'veteran' or 'optimized' enough to interpret that properly.  And you knew that they hadn't because you had access to their sheets and saw no defenses to the killer combo you were about to unleash.  And then you unleashed it.

Contrast this to the other GM:  He told them, straight up, that this fight could kill them three or four times over easily.  They knew the CRs of what they were fighting compared to them, even the basic statistics, even if they didn't metagame at all.  He then bent the rules to let them prepare in a thematic and fantastic way (training up villagers), set up a brilliant, hard, excitingmy opinion, seeks to avoid that.  Even used as a way to try to salvage a game's attention by being brutal and gygaxian for a while to get people to take the game seriously, it's a suboptimal method to achieve that since it can so easily go the other way (losing what little immersion and characterization and interest people have as theit characters die over and over again).

If players are not optimizers, killing them many times doesn't significantly increase the chance they might become optimizers.  And not all games have to be paranoid DM vs Players style games.  Sometimes you can, y'know, tell a story about some heroes.  And those heroes can totally mechanically do heroic things, without having to always be tier 1 classes that have no abilities that don't add to their power as much as possible.

Finally, you can absolutely spank a group of PCs with to show them that perhaps preparation might be a good idea without instakilling them.  In the situation you described, simply using Evard's, on it's basic own, would have been perfectly fine.  Evard's + Fireball, or Evard's + Summon Swarm, or Evard's + Entangle or something.

Essentially you could have done lots of things without instamurdering the party.  Instamurdering the party was unnecessary.  You knew you were instamurdering them.  And you did it anyway.  And from my understanding of the situation, instamurdering them was not plot-relevant, and it was not thematic, and it was not heroic.  It didn't really serve a purpose.  Maybe your players like rolling up new characters and like getting pwned cause it's fun for them.  If so, they are atypical players.  And you need to state that when you're talking about this situation.

But no, the party was not doomed from the start.  They were doomed when you decided to use your TPK maneuver despite them not preparing for it.  That's the exact point at which they were doomed.

InnaBinder

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Re: Was The Party Doomed From The Start?
« Reply #158 on: March 10, 2011, 04:20:27 PM »
Sounds more like luck from here, if the options are luck or perfectly eyeballing players, defenses, etc and being able to exactly predict the flow of combat, including spells and resources used and hit ratios (which, as we all know, swing a bit more than we'd like to pretend).
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Rejakor

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Re: Was The Party Doomed From The Start?
« Reply #159 on: March 10, 2011, 04:24:51 PM »
It does not take godlike skill to realize that none of the players at the table have access to dispel magic