Author Topic: Was The Party Doomed From The Start?  (Read 25584 times)

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InnaBinder

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Was The Party Doomed From The Start?
« on: October 17, 2010, 07:29:10 PM »
I just TPKed the group I DM for with a single NPC yesterday.  Not surprisingly, I find myself going over the setup and combat to make sure I didn't give them a no-win scenario.

The party: Human Crusader 6 with Stone Power focused on Devoted Spirit, Human Sorcerer 6 with heavy draconic feat focus and blaster-orientation, Changeling ranged Fighter 2/Ranger 4 with Distracting Attack instead of companion, Kalashtar Kineticist 4/Swordsage 2, Elf Paladin 6 who had yet to call a mount, Rogue 1 /Shaper 4 headed to Ebon Saint.  Not present were a Human Bard 6, and a TWF Human Ranger with a wolf.

The NPC: Sun Elf Wizard 7 with Extra Spell, an Item Creation feat (wand went unused), and Improved Init.

The slaughter: The party is on a small island that they know used to be occupied by wizards, long ago, to help the NPCs who are collecting the MacGuffin that grows only there.  Passive Spot/Listen checks (I assume an 11 plus their modifiers) vs the NPC let him act unseen.  He chugs a Potion of Invisibility.  Initiative is rolled; Wizard's initiative order has him go second, but because the Kineticist doesn't see or hear him, he waits and Wizard acts.  Wizard casts Solid Fog, aimed to snare the whole party.  The party inches away from each other toward the edges of the fog, with the Crusader being closest to the outside.  Though they had just come from a fairly large city, none had invested in FoM or similar. 

Round 2, Kineticist moves closer to the edge of the fog, and Wizard casts Evard's Black Tentacles into the center of the fog.  A random roll in the open for positioning says it snares everyone but the Paladin and Crusader.  Failed Escape Artist checks for those in the tentacles, Crusader gets to the edge but not out of the fog, and the Paladin shouts to tell the Kineticist - who has dimension swap - that he's free as the others communicate their plight.

Round 3, successful Concentration check and the Kineticist swaps places with the Paladin, who is better able to soak the grapple damage.  Wizard casts Alter Self - Wings.  Party takes damage from Tentacles as appropriate.  Paladin makes a miraculous Escape Artist check.  Crusader steps out of the fog and cannot locate Wizard. 

Round 4, Kineticist moves to the edge of the fog.  Vortex of Teeth from Wizard hits the whole party, dropping the Sorcerer and Shaper when coupled with Tentacles damage.  Paladin moves closer to edge, while the Ranger fails Escape Artist check.  Crusader is unable to target Wizard effectively.

Round 5, Kineticist recovers a few HP, then drops from Vortex of Teeth damage, which couples with the Tentacles to take out everyone but the Crusader.  Lesser Orb of Frost hits Crusader, and he's down.

The raw numbers didn't make this unwinnable, but did spell selection and circumstance combine for a hopeless scenario?  Short of fudging, what are the suggestions of the hive mind?
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Havok4

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Re: Was The Party Doomed From The Start?
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2010, 09:02:53 PM »
You hit them with heavy battlefield control spells that are pretty much irresistible without teleportaion. This is more an issue of the party not being prepared for invisible opponents with a fly speed, and they lacked the ability to get out of the trap you set for them. You should have looked at their character sheets and seen that they could not deal with an encounter like this, but it is also somewhat their fault for not preparing for this type of encounter.

Epimetheus

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Re: Was The Party Doomed From The Start?
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2010, 09:15:02 PM »
If the party had surprised the Wizard, the reverse would've happened, so I don't know how sympathetic I should be...

The combination of spells used was extremely good. Solid Fog prevents them from moving, seeing, and using ranged attacks. Evard's Black Tentacles doubles the threat of immobility, and deals damage. And Vortex of Teeth becomes free damage on the trapped PCs. The NPC didn't prebuff with Fly (only that potion of Invis), but he/she didn't really need to.

Unfortunately, the party didn't seem to have any defense against the Wizard's attack. I don't think anyone in the team had any way to survive the immobilization factor. Solid Fog alone shuts down everyone, as it is no save, no SR with good radius. (While Solid Fog would have canceled out the Invisibility effects, the party couldn't see anyway.) Combining it with Evard's Black Tentacles really just ensured that nobody could get away. And then Vortex of Teeth was just sadistic... Actually, all of these had no Save. I wonder why the PCs had no chance but to lose?

Also, how does this party heal itself? Lay on Hands doesn't seem to do much of anything. And the Bard wasn't present either... Crusader's Devoted Spirit Maneuvers? Right.

Nobody had flight, nobody had dispel magic. Nobody could teleport (without dragging somebody else into the danger zone). There wasn't anyone who could heal. Nobody had any freedom of movement either, as it is 4th lvl. (And Heart of Water, while good, probably wasn't the Sorcerer's first pick as his/her sole 3rd lvl spell known.) Black Tentacles's grapple is extremely good, and nobody really trains Escape Artist. Even if they did, they'd still have the fog, so they may as well have given up...

This party had really no chance to win after the Wizard surprised them. I don't know if they should be used to encounters where a Wizard is out to kill them, but Wizards have so many ways of defeating them, that the best they could have done is to NOT travel in a pack. As in, spread out a bit more when traveling. Buying items to help them on this island wouldn't have worked as there are too many combinations to defend against. That said, some sort of blindsight [Clr/Drd 3] (or Touchsight?) might have helped. Also, a Cleric who can sense casting and free action counterspell might have helped too. However, their classes don't work out for that.

I do not believe that the PCs had any way of countering against an invisible flyer would had no save grapple + immobilization effects. Because if they did buy the right items for this encounter, they'd have to watch out for the Wizard who commands legions of undead, or maybe the group of Wizards who just Fell Drain Magic Missile + Celerity the PCs into nothingness. Items would not have helped them; they would not have known what to buy. I don't think this is their fault at all...

A Tier 1 character who got surprise on Tier 3-5 characters... how sad. (The sorcerer is a blaster, and thus doesn't count as Tier 2)

InnaBinder

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Re: Was The Party Doomed From The Start?
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2010, 09:20:08 PM »
Valid points about BFC.

Three of them did, in fact train Escape Artist heavily: The Shaper, the Ranger, and the Kineticist.

Two Psions and a Sorcerer in the group - even if the Psions did multiclass - so pegging them at Tier 3 might be a bit of underselling.
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raith0

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Re: Was The Party Doomed From The Start?
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2010, 09:44:07 PM »
Valid points about BFC.

Three of them did, in fact train Escape Artist heavily: The Shaper, the Ranger, and the Kineticist.

Two Psions and a Sorcerer in the group - even if the Psions did multiclass - so pegging them at Tier 3 might be a bit of underselling.

spell selection was his point on the sorcerer. 
did the kenetics just delay or did he ready an action?  that alone could have saved him and made the possibly put the wizard into a bad spot(not sure how the power works on targets).  and that may have changed the encounter a bit.  i dont think it was hopeless but it was pretty close to it.


Epimetheus

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Re: Was The Party Doomed From The Start?
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2010, 10:10:07 PM »
Yeah, Blaster sorcerers don't work if they don't know where to blast. Also, evocation is weak.

Well, the psions were multiclassed, that at leasts slows how good they are. They might still be Tier 2 in the long run, but not just yet. Being unable to use 3rd lvl psi powers at lvl 6 would make them no longer Tier 2.

Also like I said, the Solid Fog would have prevented them from running out of the tentacles after a successful Escape Artist check (probably at +10-14 or so) vs the grapple at +15 (+7 caster, +4 Large, +4 'str'). So 50% chance, I'd say. Despite escaping, they'd just be (likely) auto-grappled (+15 vs their grapple mod, probably +2-6 (BAB) + -1 to 4 (str), which unsurprisingly, will usually lose) the next turn. As the vortex of teeth rains down the damage on them. So all those skill points in Escape Artist are still mostly ineffective.

Sometimes Dispel Magic (or Iron Heart Surge, but Crusaders get their maneuvers randomly and don't have many choices) are the only ways out of these situations... If your character were stuck in a Solid Fog, what can YOU do? Stumble out of it slowly, wasting all your other actions. A Wizard, Cleric, or Druid might have been able to handle this situation though. Druid has senses [as well as easy spot or listen optimization] and an animal companion to help out. (They might not have been surprised.) Clerics and Wizards can Dispel Magic (which they definitely would have prepared because they knew it was an island of wizards). 1 or 2 area dispels would've helped out, I'd think.

I think the PCs should have tried double moving during Round 1 though. That's get them 10 feet through the fog, which would put them very close to the exit, assuming they go the correct direction out. It still wouldn't have helped much though because of the tentacles. Note though that the flying wizard would still be pretty much immune to whatever they had, and could've just flown away if things looked bad (as in >1 PC escaped the fog and tentacles), leaving the PCs nearly dead and easy pickings for the next lvl 7 Wizard who comes along.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Was The Party Doomed From The Start?
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2010, 02:10:56 AM »
Do they know about Anklets of Translocation? There is a reason that's one item that I always buy for almost all of my characters.  :D

Did the crusader not even have a ranged weapon? Since the wizard should have been visible after Evard's (at least... I think so...) he should have at least been target-able. The crusader could have readied actions to shoot him if he cast, to try and disrupt. At this level it is understandable if not everyone has flight, but they should at least have ranged weapons...

But yeah... that's a brutally effective spell suite you used there, especially against a party that isn't really prepared for it. The nice (or not...) thing about it is that the key parts of it are all core.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Epimetheus

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Re: Was The Party Doomed From The Start?
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2010, 03:12:41 AM »
Wait, wait. Anklet of Translocation requires line of sight (and line of effect, not that it matters). What exactly does Solid Fog do again...?

Oops.

Maybe the Crusader might have tried something with Rounds 4 and 5, if he had found the wizard. But since he couldn't find the wizard on round 3, that means spotting and drawing a bow would have to be on Round 4. Spotting might be a standard action, I think, so no shooting either way. The wizard went first on Round 5, so that was bye-bye Crusader without a chance of doing anything.

Although I wouldn't mind getting an Anklet of Translocation now that I see it...
« Last Edit: October 18, 2010, 03:39:24 AM by Epimetheus »

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Was The Party Doomed From The Start?
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2010, 03:38:21 AM »
Well crap. I'd forgotten it required LOS. Solid Fog doesn't block LoE.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

RobbyPants

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Re: Was The Party Doomed From The Start?
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2010, 10:01:18 AM »
Wait.  Was the wizard still invisible after casting the spells, or did he just hide somewhere once everyone was in the fog?  His potion of Invisibility should have dropped as soon as he cast Solid Fog.
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InnaBinder

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Re: Was The Party Doomed From The Start?
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2010, 10:14:53 AM »
He hid in a copse of trees, then moved once the Crusader was out of the fog.  By that time, he had flight.

EDIT:
Quote
Did the crusader not even have a ranged weapon?
He had a non-magical, non-masterworked bow.  Didn't succeed in his Spot check to find the flying Wizard after emerging from the Solid Fog.  Melee focus for the Crusader meant he scrimped on perception skills and ranged weapons in general.  The Psions and Sorcerer usually handled the ranged encounters.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2010, 12:53:09 PM by InnaBinder »
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RobbyPants

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Re: Was The Party Doomed From The Start?
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2010, 11:58:48 AM »
Okay.  I figured he had a way to hide, but I just wanted to make sure it was legit.

Yeah, like everyone's been saying, those BFC spells are a great way for a caster to augment his own action economy.  You simply turn 1 < 6 into 1 > 0 and start kicking ass.
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Quotes
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It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
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Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
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Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
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I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
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Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
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Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Soda

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Re: Was The Party Doomed From The Start?
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2010, 12:04:40 PM »
Show this to people who don't think wizards are good. One tier 1 caster beats a party of six without coming close to being in any sort of danger.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Was The Party Doomed From The Start?
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2010, 03:53:17 PM »
Show this to people who don't think wizards are good. 
Those people are illiterate and/or don't have internet connections.
[spoiler]
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Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
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[/spoiler]

bkdubs123

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Re: Was The Party Doomed From The Start?
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2010, 05:08:02 PM »
He hid in a copse of trees, then moved once the Crusader was out of the fog.  By that time, he had flight.

EDIT:
Quote
Did the crusader not even have a ranged weapon?
He had a non-magical, non-masterworked bow.  Didn't succeed in his Spot check to find the flying Wizard after emerging from the Solid Fog.  Melee focus for the Crusader meant he scrimped on perception skills and ranged weapons in general.  The Psions and Sorcerer usually handled the ranged encounters.

How do you hide in the sky? Or to rephrase: how the heck could the Crusader not see him after he started flying?

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Was The Party Doomed From The Start?
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2010, 05:20:46 PM »
You could hide in the treetops but still be out of melee range.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

bkdubs123

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Re: Was The Party Doomed From The Start?
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2010, 05:31:34 PM »
I would have started cutting trees down if I were the Crusader, lol. If the Wiz wants to keep hiding from me in the treetops I've got partial cover and concealment to him while I'm hacking down those badboys. :p

Epimetheus

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Re: Was The Party Doomed From The Start?
« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2010, 05:42:41 PM »
I assumed the Wizard flew directly over the Solid Fog so that the Crusader would have to move a bit away before he'd have enough angle to see the Wizard. As a result of any movement outwards, the Wizard could then see the Crusader, which would allow for the Lesser Orb of Frost. The wizard does not need to actively search for the Crusader due to the Vortex of Teeth (40' radius) and Solid Fog (20' radius and 20' high). I don't want to get into the geometry, but this should actually work:

If the crusader has left the vortex of teeth, the wizard can see him. And due to initiative and spot as standard action rules, the wizard pwns the crusader with no chance for the PC.

Run into the trees might have been better for the Crusader, but then he'd just be leaving all his party members to actually die (as in go negative in HP). And then the wizard could hunt down the crusader later. Maybe with another potion of invis. As the wizard would still notice a fleeing crusader, he/she presumably would be able to win. Magic Missile would probably work if Lesser Orb of Frost did.

bkdubs123

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Re: Was The Party Doomed From The Start?
« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2010, 05:54:09 PM »
Anyway, I definitely think the party was doomed from the start and that's it's pretty lame for the DM to have attacked PCs that he knew beforehand had no way to escape strong BFC with exactly that, and from an ambush encounter no less. Really, why even post about it here? You knew they couldn't win against the tactic, and you proceeded with it anyway. On top of that you had 5/6 of the party in a deathgrip with Solid Fog and Evard's, but you didn't stop there - you eviscerated them with Vortex of Teeth.

How, with the knowledge that they had no way of defeating the spells you threw at them, did you expect the encounter to go?

InnaBinder

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Re: Was The Party Doomed From The Start?
« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2010, 06:47:47 PM »
You could hide in the treetops but still be out of melee range.
Exactly.  The Spot DC was 13, FWIW.

Quote
Anyway, I definitely think the party was doomed from the start and that's it's pretty lame for the DM to have attacked PCs that he knew  beforehand had no way to escape strong BFC with exactly that, and from an ambush encounter no less.<snip rhetorical question> You knew they couldn't win against the tactic, and you proceeded with it anyway. On top of that you had 5/6 of the party in a deathgrip with Solid Fog and Evard's, but you didn't stop there - you eviscerated them with Vortex of Teeth.
If I KNEW they couldn't win against a tactic, I would not use it.  Players are a creative bunch, in general.  I'll not exclude my players from that descriptor.  My group ranges from 6 - 18 players, depending on the week; those listed were the ones that showed up and the most frequent to appear who were not present that week.  Knowing, in advance, how many of them will show up is a luxury I do not have in creating encounters.  They were also freshly hired to this job in a major city, with enough cash to have chosen to equip themselves differently than they did. 

The party did have some dimensional maneuvers (some not present had additional options as well) which they chose to use less than optimally.  They could have done as previously suggested and double-moved out of the fog.  They could have had the EBT capture less, more, or a different set of them, since the Wizard centered it and I rolled for orientation from that point.

Quote
How, with the knowledge that they had no way of defeating the spells you threw at them, did you expect the encounter to go?
The aside quoted between the commas assumes facts not in evidence regarding my knowledge of their thought processes and creativity.  I expected clever players to apply their creativity to a problem that was more than 'We gotta hit dem monsters wit' dis here axe 'til dey fall down.'  This particular party had slain two appropriate CR dragons and a drow enclave, so throwing a one-legged blind hobgoblin at them as an obstacle didn't quite seem appropriate, although it's an encounter I would have known beforehand that they could handle.
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