Psion vs Ardent?

[charleskoz]

I'm considering a new character build that will involve starting out with a skillmonkey class and then mixing in either Psion or Ardent. I've analyzed each extensively, and am just wondering what folks here think in general of the two compared to each other.

My general assessment is that the Psion seems much more powerful, because Ardents are so severely restricted with respect to power selection (my DM is not a big fan of online supplements so I would pretty much have to play the Ardent as written). I do like the better hit dice and BAB, as well as some of the nifty mantle powers, though. And the quirk with powers being selected by manifester level rather than class level is handy.

But overall, the Psion still seems stronger due to versatility.

The rough builds being considered are Scout/Ardent or Beguiler/Psion. These aren't intended to be simple alternatives, I realize they are quite different, they are just combos I think are worth considering due to race selection options, compatible ability scores, etc.

Your thoughts?

[Phoenix00]

Generally 3 out of 4 times Psion is better than Ardent.  Pretty much the only times Ardent is better than Psion is they can lose manifester levels but not lose higher powers due to practiced manifester and dominant ideal.

Ardents have almost half the powers known compared to a psion.

BAB doesn't really matter for it is way too easy for Psions to get good Full BAB psionic prestige classes.  A couple hit points doesn't really matter in the long run since vigor is so awesome (especially with psicrystals and shared pain)

For full bab look at these prestige clases

• Slayer (SRD), Full BAB, 9/10 manifesting, 4+skills,
  Requires BAB 4, Track, other minor requirements
• Sanctified Mind (Lord of Madness), Full BAB, 5/6 manifesting, 4+skills
  Requires BAB 4, Non Evil, Iron Will, other minor requirements
• Psionic Adaption of Abjurant Champion (Complete Mage), Full BAB, 5/5 manifesting, 2+skills,
  Requires BAB 5, Combat Casting, other minor requirements
• Ghostbreaker (Hyperconscious which is 3rd party but almost everyone allows it), Full BAB, 5/5 manifesting, 2+skills
  Requires BAB 3, Kill 1 Undead, Can't enter till after 5th level, other minor requirements

Unlike Arcane Gish Prcs, all these classes also give some abilities that are actually useful.  It is quite easy to get 18 manifesting and 17 BAB when using these classes.

Oh Psions are also fun if you can get your DM to allow a custom version of psionic haste and doing the swiftblade prc.  If you do swiftblade might as well take 1 level of elocator since elocator gives you all martial weapon requirements, is full casting for the first level, 3/4 bab, and has 6+ skill points first level and the requirements are almost a perfect dove tail.

[sir_argenon]

Oh Psions are also fun if you can get your DM to allow a custom version of psionic haste and doing the swiftblade prc.  If you do swiftblade might as well take 1 level of elocator since elocator gives you all martial weapon requirements, is full casting for the first level, 3/4 bab, and has 6+ skill points first level and the requirements are almost a perfect dove tail.

psionic research ==> haste power FTW!

[Aharon]

Ardents using the ACFs are pretty good, though - especially Dominant Ideal upped their power a lot. I'm not familiar enough with psionics to know wether that makes them better than psions.

ACFs

[Lycanthromancer]

Oh Psions are also fun if you can get your DM to allow a custom version of psionic haste and doing the swiftblade prc.  If you do swiftblade might as well take 1 level of elocator since elocator gives you all martial weapon requirements, is full casting for the first level, 3/4 bab, and has 6+ skill points first level and the requirements are almost a perfect dove tail.

psionic research ==> haste power FTW!

There's already one in Untapped Potential. Self-only, though.

[Shadowhunter]

Personal?
Ok, so Untapped Potential gives us a power that explicitly work as Haste but with range personal.

And Hyperconcious gives us Persistent Power.

...

Yeah. I like.


Unrelated note:
The authors of Untapped Potential gives special credits to someone with the same name as a guy I know of.
This guy was the main driving fore of anything hobby-related around here.
Role playing, boardgames, cards, miniature games, LARP, the works.

If it's the same guy the world suddenly seems very small.

[dark_samuari]

If you can use the alternate class features for the Ardent to customize your own mantles than it jumps ahead of the psion because of added flexibility/versatility in being able to pick & choose from select discipline powers.

In addition the ardent is more securely packed together with a higher BaB and heavy armor proficiency.

But this all really depends on those alternate class features.

[X-Codes]

If you can use the alternate class features for the Ardent to customize your own mantles than it jumps ahead of the psion because of added flexibility/versatility in being able to pick & choose from select discipline powers.

In addition the ardent is more securely packed together with a higher BaB and heavy armor proficiency.

But this all really depends on those alternate class features.

No, this really isn't true.  The ardent might be able to pick from a very wide-ranging list of powers, but they still only pick half the powers that a Psion does.

Ardent is a very nice psionic Gish class, but Psion is the real manifester.  The Psion might be able to PrC to become a good psionic gish, but Ardents do that better, regardless.

[dark_samuari]

If you can use the alternate class features for the Ardent to customize your own mantles than it jumps ahead of the psion because of added flexibility/versatility in being able to pick & choose from select discipline powers.

In addition the ardent is more securely packed together with a higher BaB and heavy armor proficiency.

But this all really depends on those alternate class features.

No, this really isn't true.  The ardent might be able to pick from a very wide-ranging list of powers, but they still only pick half the powers that a Psion does.

Ardent is a very nice psionic Gish class, but Psion is the real manifester.  The Psion might be able to PrC to become a good psionic gish, but Ardents do that better, regardless.

So quantity of powers is beating quality of powers here?

[awaken DM golem]

Not really.
Psion has access to the same quality of powers.

Ardent with Practiced Manifester feat 2 or 3 / ClassX 2 / ClassY 2
is basically the full gimmick of the class.
Magic Mantle has quite the dish of cheese and ice cream.
Ardent 7 can take either Metamorph or Schism.
Ardent 8 can take the other, so you are 1 level ahead of a Psion ... but just the one level.
Ardent 10 gets DI , and almost automatically takes it.

But what do you do with the next 10 levels?
So you hack back into the first gimmick.
Early game you are behind a little more.
Late game you have more stuff to choose from than previously.
Compared to the Psion though, you have less stuff.

This is around the point where Ur-Priest and Psiotheurgist thickery is mandatory.
imho - Tome of Battle material fits better with the Ardent than Psion, by slight margins.

EDIT ... I suppose the feel of the class matters too. Psion anything feels like a Psion.
Ardent + wider range of options, doesn't feel like a Psion at all.
I like it, depending on what I'm trying to do.

[X-Codes]

So quantity of powers is beating quality of powers here?

Ardent does not have better powers than a Psion.  An Ardent Gish has a better ML than a Psion gish, but a Psion full manifester has more high-quality powers than an Ardent, that's why Psions are better pure manifesters than Ardents.

[KellKheraptis]

In this specific instance, Psion is the stronger option.  However, if Dominant Ideal is on the table, Ardent wins by a landslide, no contest.  Especially if you have access as well to Getting Wired.

[X-Codes]

In this specific instance, Psion is the stronger option.  However, if Dominant Ideal is on the table, Ardent wins by a landslide, no contest.  Especially if you have access as well to Getting Wired.

No idea what you're talking about.

[KellKheraptis]

In this specific instance, Psion is the stronger option.  However, if Dominant Ideal is on the table, Ardent wins by a landslide, no contest.  Especially if you have access as well to Getting Wired.

No idea what you're talking about.

Getting Wired, the online supplement expanding psionic tattoos (i.e. xp-free PsyRef and PsiChir), and Dominant Ideal, or "Hi, I'm an Ardent who can metapower like a caster metamagics without blowing focus!"

[X-Codes]

I was actually kinda hoping for a link, not some half-assed paraphrasing of what happens.

[KellKheraptis]

I was actually kinda hoping for a link, not some half-assed paraphrasing of what happens.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a

Dominant Ideal, Mantle Filling, Mantle Shuffling, aka why Ardents just moved up 1-2 tiers.

[Amechra]

There are ways to boost MLs to be really high. Like, oh, I don't know, Wizard 5/Red Wizard 5/Ardent 1/Something Else X.

With one of the Psiotheurgy feats, combined with Practiced Manifester/Practiced Spellcaster, and you have a ML of 49. I think that's high enough to learn whatever powers you want. It's only one school though, so you have to act fast.

[KellKheraptis]

Ardent with Dominant Ideal (Mantle of awesome broken that rocks with metapowers), Leadership, and Metanode Manifesting+Node Manifesting.  Use one of the many red wizard builds with massive CL and have them cast Mental Pinnacle.  Then have them manifest Node Genesis at that ML, keyed to you.  His use is done.  Between the +20 or so there, and the +(40 or 60, can't remember which) you get from Power Link Shards, you can almost if not completely match the Red Wizard, plus you get all his CL boosters if you have the magic mantle.

[X-Codes]

Not impressed by Dominant Ideal, and not impressed with Red Wizard/Mental Pinnacle.  Red Wizard/Mental Pinnacle is *not* an Ardent build, no matter how you try to spin that crap.

The big problem with Dominant Ideal is that you need to be a level 10 Ardent to get it.  That's going to restrict your ability to do other stuff.

Also, name an actual mantle of awesome broken that rocks with metapowers.  Generically saying "awesome mantle" is a pretty useless sentiment.

[KellKheraptis]

Not impressed by Dominant Ideal, and not impressed with Red Wizard/Mental Pinnacle.  Red Wizard/Mental Pinnacle is *not* an Ardent build, no matter how you try to spin that crap.

The big problem with Dominant Ideal is that you need to be a level 10 Ardent to get it.  That's going to restrict your ability to do other stuff.

Also, name an actual mantle of awesome broken that rocks with metapowers.  Generically saying "awesome mantle" is a pretty useless sentiment.

Go read the ACF's again.  Note where it states "adding powers to mantles" and "changing powers in mantles" ?  Now add Synchronicity to a mantle.  That alone with a recharge = infinite actions, damage, and pp.  That's just ONE POWER with Dominant Ideal.

Now, that Red Wizard is only for generating an ML sink.  They have the massive CL needed to make a killer node, and by doing it psionically there's no contest as to whether the Ardent can use it or not (though with the magic mantle they could, psionic or arcane).  But as I stated before, without the online ACF's the Ardent remains behind the Psion in terms of actual power, barring usual cheese to get all spells and powers known.