Author Topic: [Pathfinder] The Spy Optimization  (Read 6809 times)

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Rasengan2theface

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[Pathfinder] The Spy Optimization
« on: October 15, 2010, 11:54:59 PM »
I've been working on a 20 level build for a backup character for an uberdeadly campaign we're running.

Currently I'm looking at Sorc4/Spellthief1/Unseen Seer1/Arcane Trickster 10/Spellwarp Sniper4

I know Wizard is a bit more optimized, but lack of need for Somatic Components and the extra castings appeal to me since this will mostly be a "I'm sneaky, but I can still blast you in the head with a laser" type of character, not to mention I wouldn't want to pull away from the limelight of the wizard we already have in the party. The bonus feats that Pathfinder gives also helps a lot.

I'm mostly looking for better class optimization suggestions and feat suggestions outside of Prereques.


juton

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Re: [Pathfinder] The Spy Optimization
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2010, 12:45:51 AM »
Since it looks like you're optimizing for sneak attack over BAB, and since you have access to 3.5 pickup the spell 'Wraith Strike' from the Spell Compendium which can make all attacks in a round touch attacks. Sorcerers spells still have somatic components, so you'll need to take the master spellthief feat (Complete Scoundrel) to be able to cast in armour, but Mage armour is probably easier. Otherwise, it looks like a perfectly workable build, the only thing you need to think about are feats and spells. You might want to pickup Silent Spell so you can cast without making a noise, and invisible spell so they wont even see your spells.

gorfnad

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Re: [Pathfinder] The Spy Optimization
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2010, 07:34:07 AM »
Your build could use some tweaking. Try this:
Spellthief 1/ Sorc 4/ Unseen Seer 2/ Spellwarp Sniper 5/ Arcane Trickster 8

Spellthief 1 - for the 1st level skill points
Unseen Seer 2 - Advance Learning: Hunters Eye spell from Players Handbook II
Spellwarp Sniper 5 - Ray Mastery is very nice

Feats:
Master Spellthief - Complete Scoundrel
Craven - Champions of Ruin
Invisible Spell - Cityscape
Versatile Spellcaster - Races of the Dragon
Darkstalker - Lords of Madness
Persistent Spell - Complete Arcane
Guided Spell - Dragon #307, Dragon Compendium Volume 1
Arcane Blast - Pathfinder: Advanced Players Guide

Spells:
Snipers Shot - Spell Compendium
Guided Shot - Spell Compendium
« Last Edit: October 16, 2010, 08:28:54 AM by gorfnad »

Rasengan2theface

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Re: [Pathfinder] The Spy Optimization
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2010, 07:14:17 AM »
Your build could use some tweaking. Try this:
Spellthief 1/ Sorc 4/ Unseen Seer 2/ Spellwarp Sniper 5/ Arcane Trickster 8

Spellthief 1 - for the 1st level skill points
Unseen Seer 2 - Advance Learning: Hunters Eye spell from Players Handbook II
Spellwarp Sniper 5 - Ray Mastery is very nice

Feats:
Master Spellthief - Complete Scoundrel
Craven - Champions of Ruin
Invisible Spell - Cityscape
Versatile Spellcaster - Races of the Dragon
Darkstalker - Lords of Madness
Persistent Spell - Complete Arcane
Guided Spell - Dragon #307, Dragon Compendium Volume 1
Arcane Blast - Pathfinder: Advanced Players Guide

Spells:
Snipers Shot - Spell Compendium
Guided Shot - Spell Compendium


the first level with Pathfinder doesn't really matter like in 3.5, in-class skills automatically get a +3 to them if you have ranks in it, but you don't get the x4 at first level, all in all you actually get more in the long run.

I'd also have an extra 2 feats based off of Pathfinder progression, 3 if I decided on Human, although I'm leaning towards Tiefling since, in the Pathfinder version, they don't take the Cha penalties if they have the Infernal or Abyssal bloodlines, but I'm sure you knew that since you actually listed a PF feat from the Advanced Players Guide.

The only thing I really don't like about this build is that...I feel dumb now...with Spellwarp Sniper, it makes the 10th level redundant in Arcane Trickster, but I guess not getting the 9th level of that that late wouldn't really be that huge of a deal other than it's a free action.

...you might be rather godly with this...I'm looking for a major flaw and at 7:24am, I can't find one...

...except for the fact that it only really becomes playable between level 7 and 12 when Spellwarp Sniper is takable

I'm really having some trouble with the spell selection due to the fact that Sorcs are so limited. This might be the department I need the most guidance in.

I don't know if it will help, but this is my current sheet from DnDSheets

http://www.dndsheets.net/view.php?id=8941
« Last Edit: October 17, 2010, 07:21:00 AM by Rasengan2theface »

gorfnad

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Re: [Pathfinder] The Spy Optimization
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2010, 08:11:44 AM »
Just some ideas

0th
Detect Magic
Read Magic
Mage Hand
Acid Splash
Ray of Frost
Prestidigitation
Launch Bolt - SC

1st level
Grease
Wall of Smoke - SC
True Strike
Orb of "insert element here", Lesser  - SC
Ray of Flame - SC
Ray of Enfeeblement
Ray of Clumsiness - SC
Snipers Shot - SC

2nd level
Scorching Ray
Seeking Ray - PHBII
Ray of Ice - SC
Glitterdust
Web
Fog Cloud
Alter Self
Chain of Eyes - SC
Cloud of Knives - PHBII
Invisibility

3rd level
Ray of Exhaustion
Dispel Magic

« Last Edit: October 17, 2010, 08:14:36 AM by gorfnad »

Rasengan2theface

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Re: [Pathfinder] The Spy Optimization
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2010, 07:46:47 PM »
I love some of those spells, didn't realize a lot of them were in SC, tbh.

This is my list thus far...narrowing it down might be impossible...

- 0 Level -
Detect Magic
Read Magic
Mage Hand
Ray of Frost
Ghost Sound
Dancing Lights
Prestidigitation
Launch Bolt

- 1st level -
True Strike
Sniper's Shot
Wall of Smoke
Ray of Flame
Orb of Sound, Lesser
Ray of Enfeeblement
Backbitter
Targeting Ray

- 2nd Level -
Invisibility
Ray of Ice
Seeking Ray
Scorching Ray
Blast of Force
Electric Loop
Hail Stones
Ice Knife
Ghoul Glyph
Flame Dagger
Phantasmal Assailant
Ray of Stupidity
Rainbow Beam
Distracting Ray
Create Magic Tattoo
Chain of Eyes
Night Shield

- 3rd Level -
Cloud of Knives
Heatstroke
Great Thunderclap
Rainbow Blast
Ice Lance
Acid Breath
Rust Ray
Blacklight
Resonating Bolt
Mind Poison
Ray of the Python

now just figuring out what the feat order is going to be is the hard part...

gorfnad

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Re: [Pathfinder] The Spy Optimization
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2010, 12:10:54 AM »
- 0 Level -
Detect Magic
Read Magic
Mage Hand
Ray of Frost
Ghost Sound
Dancing Lights
Prestidigitation
Launch Bolt
Good

- 1st level -
True Strike
Sniper's Shot
Wall of Smoke
Ray of Flame
Orb of Sound, Lesser
Ray of Enfeeblement
Backbitter
Targeting Ray
Backbitter is Will Save Negates and mostly a blah spell. This would be one to drop or replace with maybe Orb of Acid Lesser.

- 2nd Level -
Invisibility
Ray of Ice
Seeking Ray
Scorching Ray
Blast of Force
Electric Loop
Hail Stones
Ice Knife
Ghoul Glyph
Flame Dagger
Phantasmal Assailant
Ray of Stupidity
Rainbow Beam
Distracting Ray
Create Magic Tattoo
Chain of Eyes
Night Shield
Night Shield is meh. Just get a Cloak of Resistance and a Brooch of Shielding.
Ghoul Glyph is mostly situational but would be worth getting a few scrolls of.
Phantasmal Assailant is Will Save Disbelief and Fortitude Partial so unless your save DC is extremely good I would stay away from spells that allow a save.
Electric Loop allows Reflex for half which is okay at best, but you have better damaging spells on your list already.

- 3rd Level -
Cloud of Knives
Heatstroke
Great Thunderclap
Rainbow Blast
Ice Lance
Acid Breath
Rust Ray
Blacklight
Resonating Bolt
Mind Poison
Ray of the Python
Cloud of Knives is a 2nd level spell and is a great one for sneak attackers.
Heatstroke is Fortitude partial, deals negligible damage, and is situational. I'm not sure how many heavily armored troops your DM is sending after you but I would never rely on this spell working either way.
Mind Poison is Fortitude Negates and even with its modified save DC it really isn't that great of a spell.

Another spell to consider is Twilight Knife (3rd level, Pathfinder Advanced Players Guide). It would make a really great flanking buddy if you're in melee.

gorfnad

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Re: [Pathfinder] The Spy Optimization
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2010, 05:26:44 AM »
Found an insane magic item for you. Sniper Goggles from the Pathfinder Advanced Players Guide page 309. Combine this with the Hunters Eye spell (PHBII, Gained through Unseen Seer) + sneak attack from class levels + Rogues Vest (Magic Item Compendium) + Craven = redonkulous amounts of sneak attack damage and it saves you from wasting a spell on Snipers Shot.

fuinjutsu

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Re: [Pathfinder] The Spy Optimization
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2010, 05:41:51 AM »
If you're taking unseen seer, take more levels of it.  Find the Gap is a good spell to have, as is Divine Insight.  Or Guidance of the Avatar.

Arcane trickster is a purely meh class.  And there's really very little to recommend spellwarp sniper

Spellthief 1/sorc4/Unseen Seer8/Arcane Trickster4/Divine Oracle2

Unseen seer has 3/4 BAB.  Take advantage of that fact. Take 8 levels of it.

also, Extend Spell is a prerequisite for persist.
Eh, the wizard have more money than them combined, he could in theory just use all his money on a fleet of trained attack mules, but then we aren't playing 3.5 but zergling rushing in Starcraft instead.

Rasengan2theface

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Re: [Pathfinder] The Spy Optimization
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2010, 11:25:07 PM »
Found an insane magic item for you. Sniper Goggles from the Pathfinder Advanced Players Guide page 309. Combine this with the Hunters Eye spell (PHBII, Gained through Unseen Seer) + sneak attack from class levels + Rogues Vest (Magic Item Compendium) + Craven = redonkulous amounts of sneak attack damage and it saves you from wasting a spell on Snipers Shot.

Those goggles ARE pretty redonkulous. I'm probably going to have to sink all my cash into them, but totally worth it.

If you're taking unseen seer, take more levels of it.  Find the Gap is a good spell to have, as is Divine Insight.  Or Guidance of the Avatar.

Arcane trickster is a purely meh class.  And there's really very little to recommend spellwarp sniper

Spellthief 1/sorc4/Unseen Seer8/Arcane Trickster4/Divine Oracle2

Unseen seer has 3/4 BAB.  Take advantage of that fact. Take 8 levels of it.

also, Extend Spell is a prerequisite for persist.

Don't get me wrong, I like the Unseen Seer class, but the hit to the caster level of spells other than Divination really hurt. At most I would probably take the class to 5th level. Which I should do the math and see if I lose a die of Sneak Attack on that or not.