Author Topic: Why haven't I heard of Artificers as effective necromancers?  (Read 1966 times)

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Endarire

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Why haven't I heard of Artificers as effective necromancers?
« on: October 13, 2010, 09:23:47 PM »
Sure, you're spending money for desecrate and animate dead scrolls, but compared to constructs, zombies and skeletons are cheap to make.  (Equipping them is usually a bigger expense.)
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Why haven't I heard of Artificers as effective necromancers?
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2010, 11:16:07 PM »
Animate dead scrolls?  Make a nightcaller (LM - 7k) instead.
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X-Codes

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Re: Why haven't I heard of Artificers as effective necromancers?
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2010, 12:15:35 AM »
They could craft that one whistle from Sunless Citadel and be pretty good at it for a while.  Once he gets the money, wands of command undead and animate dead would give him all he needs to revive just about anything that can get the Skeleton/Zombie templates.

That said, his ability to command undead created via Animate Dead is questionable because he can't actually cast the spell.  Plus, there's the problem of Animate Dead having a variable-value material component which can really screw the Artificier out of a lot of cash if the DM doesn't handle it nicely.  Further, his save DCs with command undead wands is terrible, so it's only useful against the mindless horde.

Benly

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Re: Why haven't I heard of Artificers as effective necromancers?
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2010, 03:29:14 AM »
An artificer has built-in features supporting construct minions and synergy between constructs and infusions. At the same time, Animate Dead is more expensive for artificers than for spellcasters, and because they're not casting the spells directly Corpsecrafter feats can't be applied. Constructs also don't have a hard HD control cap like Animate Dead does. Controlling powerful undead (that is, better than skeletons or zombies) is a pain in the ass without rebuking, while many if not most constructs are controlled by their creator by default. Artificers also arguably have to "prepay" for a given HD limit on their Animate Dead scroll (and the mention that it's arguable raises yet another problem, which is that if you ask three DMs how crafting costs for variable-cost material component spells work, you'll get five answers.)

Now, all that said: it's still pretty cheap to throw together a low-HD Animate Dead scroll if you want to be able to rustle up low-grade chaff on short notice. However, an artificer is relatively unlikely to become a full-on necromancer-type simply because if he wants a large number of minions on a regular basis he has a much more appealing option available for his purposes.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Why haven't I heard of Artificers as effective necromancers?
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2010, 12:01:25 PM »
A CL 5 animate dead scroll can animate 20 HD skeletons and zombies (the max, if you're not animating dragons with the Draconomicon rules) if you cast Desecrate first. So all you need are a few CL 5 scrolls, or one CL 5 wand of Animate Dead, and a way to cast Desecrate (another wand, etc). The variable material components is a problem, but even if you just pay enough to animate 20 HD for each charge/scroll, it's still a LOT cheaper than making constructs.

The so-called "higher" forms of undead actually usually suck compared to just using a bunch of skeletons and zombies that you've put even weak equipment on. They're a pain in the ass to control, usually have some kind of vulnerabilities, and you also have to worry about them turning on you if they break free of your control somehow. You also usually can't control very many of them... at least safely (I don't consider a chain of spawned undead controlled indirectly via controlling their creator to be safe at all...). Meanwhile, the guy with the skeleton and zombie army can have a huge amount of physically powerful minions for a lot less work, and less danger to himself.

And even if the artificer's CL 5 animate dead wand uses up more onyx than he needs (assuming he makes it so that each charge can animate 20 HD), he'll still be able to craft his minions' equipment more cheaply than a "real" caster would. So he'll probably break even.

So yeah, I think an artificer could make a decent necromancer. The only way he'll be behind the other casters is in the application of feats and class abilities that buff his minions up as he creates them (Corpsecrafter, etc). But then again, he's still an artificer... He hasn't actually dedicated any feats or class abilities to this at all so far. Just a bit of his WBL... So literally any artificer could add this undead horde on top of whatever else he's doing.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

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[/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Why haven't I heard of Artificers as effective necromancers?
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2010, 03:33:37 PM »
There's a wondrous item (elixir of the unfailing servant) from DotU that's like animate dead but uncapped.  Default orders are a little bad (they spawn with the order to "kill all non-drow"), but still cool.
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Endarire

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Re: Why haven't I heard of Artificers as effective necromancers?
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2010, 08:35:57 PM »
How could you apply Corpsecrafter to an animate dead effect cast from an item?
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

skydragonknight

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Re: Why haven't I heard of Artificers as effective necromancers?
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2010, 09:01:56 PM »
Dude. Blastificer + Metamagic Spell Trigger Fell Animate. Who cares about minion quality when an undead horde is a couple wand charges away?
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.