Author Topic: Help with optimized Paladin Smiting.  (Read 10764 times)

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Amechra

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Help with optimized Paladin Smiting.
« on: October 13, 2010, 12:44:43 AM »
Alright, this is an attempt to make a Paladin charger that does nice amounts of damage. Let's see how well this guy does against evil people.

Human Paladin 3/Berronar Valkyrie ACF/Paladin w/ Smiting Charge +16 (Celestial Bloodline, bought off.)

Berronar Valkyrie sacrifices turning for Pounce. Smiting Charge replaces Special Mount.

2 Flaws: Shaky and Vulnerable

Feats:
1st: Power Attack
Human: Improved Smiting
Flaw: Improved Sunder
Flaw: Improved Bullrush
3: Spirited Charge
6: Awesome Smite
9: Combat Brute
12: Shock Trooper
15: Whatever
18: Whatever

Now, let's take a look at your damage w/ one attack on a mounted charge at 20th level, with a valorous lance wielded 2-handed (legal!)
Smite: 276+12d6 damage, bypasses DR X/evil and 2*Cha points of any other DR except for epic or -, ignore miss chance, and a free trip 1/round.
PA: 720 damage, penalty goes into your AC.

Total: 996+12d6 damage. You probably killed hit.

And you get 4 of those. So it's really 3984+48d6 damage.

And this is ignoring the +6X Str damage from the 4 attacks, and the 48d8 damage from the lance itself.

Assume a Str of 20 (random number).

Average damage: 3984+168+30+216=4398 damage.

That is sufficient for me, at the moment. Any pointers to make this better?
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

My final project for my film independent study course. It could do with a watching and critiquing

bananaphone

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Re: Help with optimized Paladin Smiting.
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2010, 02:53:34 AM »
Rhino's Rush spell from the SC?
1st level Paladin spell that lets you deal double damage on a charge. Swift Action casting time.

Arz

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Re: Help with optimized Paladin Smiting.
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2010, 12:37:00 PM »
Look at Elemental Smite, and smite them twice ...

[spoiler]
Soulborn 14/ Storm Sentinel 5/ Windwright Captain 1

Soulborn 1        Power Attack
Soulborn 2     
Soulborn 3        Smiting Power, Saphire Smite
Soulborn 4     
Storm Sentry  1
Storm Sentry  2   Lesser Dragonmark
Storm Sentry  3     
Storm Sentry  4   
Storm Sentry  5   Greater Dragonmark
Soulborn  5   
Soulborn  6
Soulborn  7       Cobalt Power, Dragonmark Smite
Soulborn  8   
Soulborn  9
Soulborn  10      Elemental Smite
Soulborn  11      Open Incarnum
Soulborn  12
Soulborn  13      Shape Soulmeld
Soulborn  14
Windwright Captain  1 Made you look

Pick up the Lesser Metamagic Rod of Chaining and bullrush @ least 16 enemies/smite

Soulmelds: Astral Vambraces, Mauling Gauntlets, Sphinx Claws

Items: Incarnum Focus, Armbands of Might, Soulsmite Gauntlets, Mighty Smiting Wpn, Helm of Battle, Noble Pennon

Bullrush: +16 +2*cha +4 +4 +12 +6 +2 +10 +4 +2

Result: Falling to their doom w/ 76 dmg & dazed, prone, or unconscious
[/spoiler]

Still feel that it needs something more...

Rymosrac

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Re: Help with optimized Paladin Smiting.
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2010, 01:41:47 PM »
Looks like pretty standard ubercharger tactics here - not a lot of that damage output is coming from your smite ability.

Not that there's anything wrong with that, but the thread sounded like it was on optimizing smiting.
Shh. My common sense is tingling. . .

Ithamar

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Re: Help with optimized Paladin Smiting.
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2010, 02:15:17 PM »
Needs more Ordained Champion.
Are you worthy of Ascension?
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ninjarabbit

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Re: Help with optimized Paladin Smiting.
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2010, 09:53:34 PM »
How about this:

catfolk (LA bought off) paladin5/pious templar4/divine crusader1/fist of raziel10

ACF: Holy Warrior

Feats:
1-power attack, weapon focus (flaw), improved bullrush
3-true believer
4-divine might (holy warrior feat)
6-catfolk pounce
9-servant of the heavens
12-shock trooper
15-awesome smite
18-practiced spellcaster

8 smites at +19 damage plus Fist of Raziel goodies, 9th level spells in one domain

Amechra

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Re: Help with optimized Paladin Smiting.
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2010, 10:25:49 PM »
I made a mistake with the calculations; I was actually only getting 240 damage from the PA, not the 720.

And I'm actually getting 12(23+1d6) damage, so an average of 318 damage.

So yeah, I do get most of my damage on a charge with my smite.

Thanks for the information on Rhino's Charge. I thought it was Cleric only.

So, with that, I do, on average, 15(23+1d6) damage, so that's closer to 397~398 damage an attack.

Hell, I'll drop the Power Attack additions, and I'll throw on Silver Smiting (yeah, it's only for followers of the Silver Flame, but outside of Eberron, Berronar Truesilver seems like a decent replacement, doesn't it?)

That would take the damage with a Charging Smite to be 345+30d6 damage, 15d6 of that being sacred damage.

That's on one attack, out of 4. So I'm doing an average 48d8+1380+120d6 damage, assuming all hit. Hell, throw Empower Supernatural Ability, and you've got 48d8+1380+1.5(120d6) damage, or 2226 damage on average.

Now, what's the slowest mount in existence? Either that, or a one level dip into Ranger could grab me any of the animal companions; I need a really slow one.

You know, so that I can charge in cramped places?
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

My final project for my film independent study course. It could do with a watching and critiquing

skydragonknight

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Re: Help with optimized Paladin Smiting.
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2010, 11:38:06 PM »
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Help with optimized Paladin Smiting.
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2010, 12:05:45 AM »
The best part about that monster is how you do descriptions as a DM.

"You open up the stable doors, and see the place in disarray.  Hay is everywhere, the stall doors are open and OH MY GOD A DIRE TORTOISE!
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X-Codes

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Re: Help with optimized Paladin Smiting.
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2010, 12:09:00 AM »
I think it's awesome that the Paladin/PT/DC/FoR build is still getting attention around here.  It's hard to beat if you know you're fighting evil in your camp, but for more general-purpose stuff I think Gray Guard is better nowandays.

Anyway, I see serious problems with your numbers.  For your Smite Evil, I only see 20+1d6 damage vs. Evil opponents.  The static damage is multiplied, but the dice are not.  We'll handle the multiplication later.

For Power Attack, we'll start with the 40 damage from a full Power Attack.  The only increase I see is that you're using a weapon two-handed.

For multipliers, you're attacking with a valorous lance while mounted with the spirited charge feat.  That's x4 damage.

(1d8 + 40 + 20) * 4 + 1d6
or
4d8 + 1d6 + 240

Average 262 damage on the first attack, 182 damage on subsequent attacks.

Amechra

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Re: Help with optimized Paladin Smiting.
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2010, 12:42:43 AM »
Actually, extra dice from the feat are multiplied. They don't have a note about not multiplying, so it multiplies (that actually is the default, last time I checked. That is why SA actually says that it doesn't multiply.)

I have a bought off celestial bloodline. It's in the OP.

You're missing Charging Smite, the Paladin ACF that triples my smiting damage on a charge, while using just the right language so that it doesn't count as a tripling (so in other words, I was correct about the X12 (Charging smite=X3, Valorous Lance+Spirited Charge+X4. 4*(X3)=X12.))

Forgot about Mounted Combat and Ride-by-Attack. Will add them.

Besides, that's a 2d6, thank you, because I added Silver Smiting (+1d6 Sacred Damage) to the mix.

X-Codes, I think I'll stay with my Paladin riding a Dungeonbred Dire Tortoise with his Valorous Lance of the Unending Charge, thank you very much. Even if he only does the amount of damage you say. 'Cause that's still pretty decent. And the image in my head is hilarious.

I'm actually thinking of adding diversity to my theoretical paladin by swapping Celestial Bloodline for Devil/Demon Bloodlines. One of those two.
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

My final project for my film independent study course. It could do with a watching and critiquing

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Help with optimized Paladin Smiting.
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2010, 01:36:57 AM »
Multiplying Damage

Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage.

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Ed-Zero

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Re: Help with optimized Paladin Smiting.
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2010, 03:59:31 AM »
Looks like pretty standard ubercharger tactics here - not a lot of that damage output is coming from your smite ability.

Not that there's anything wrong with that, but the thread sounded like it was on optimizing smiting.
I completely agree, which is why this thread is now actually about optimization of smite (least my post will be).

Behold!

+++

Classes:
-Fist of Raziel - 10 levels - BoED - Chain Smite!
-Triadic Knight - 7 levels - Champions of Valor - Threefold SMite (Use 3 smites at one time!) - needs endurance+a initiate feat
-Ordained Champion - 5 levels - Complete Champion - Spend a turn/rebuke attempt to turn your next attack into a smite - Weapon focus of Dieties Favored Weapon
-Faith Scion - http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/legendaryWeapons.htm#FaithScion - ridiculous bonus to smite (4 to his attack roll and deals 2 extra points of damage per faith scion level)

Alternate Class Features:
Charging Smite - PHB2 - replaces mount at 5th level - when you smite evil on a charge, you deal an extra 2 points of damage per paladin level to any creature you hit (in addition to the normal bonus dealt by a smite). If the charge attack misses, the smite ability is not considered used.

Weapon Abilities:
Mighty Smiting - OA/MiC - +1 Bonus - get 1 extra smite/day, +2 attack and +2 damage

Feats:
Exalted Smite (BoED) - Weapon is considered good
Extra Smiting (CW) - 2 more smite attempts/day
Silver Smite (ECS) - +1d6 damage when smiting
From Smite to Song (Champions of Valor) - Spend smite evil to duplicate inspire courage effect
Sapphire Smite (Magic of Incarnum) - Gain additional smites/day equal to amount of essentia invested. Also you gain +1 damage dealt by your smite for every point of essentia invested. Gain 1 essentia
Improved Smiting - Complete Divine - Smites deal an extra 1d6
Divine Might - Complete Warrior - Spend a Turn Attempt to give myself bonus damage equal to my CHA modifier
Epic Divine Might [Divine] [Epic] Spend one of your turn/rebuke undead attempts to add twice your Charisma bonus to your weapon damage for a number of rounds equal to twice your Charisma modifier. The effects of this feat stack with those granted by Divine Might.
Avenging Strike - CHA to damage against evil outsiders only for 1 attack


Items:
Badge of Glory - Deal Smiting Damage 2/day
Balors's Sword of Smiting - 118,670 - Gain Smite Good 1/day, Adds CHA to attack roll and deals +10 damage in addition to the +2d6 points of unholy damage the weapon normally deals.
Vigilant Halberd - A&E - 72,310gp - +4 Defending Halberd - When you smite with the halberd, it deals 2 points of damage per level instead of 1. - 1d10 damage, x3 crit
Noble Pennon - 5,000gp - Smite evil deals +2 extra damage (flat, not per lvl)
Cloak of Charisma +6 enhancement
Belt of Magnificence (enhancement)
Tome of Leadership and Influence
Command Enchant - (Defenders of the Faith) +4 competence to CHA +2 bonus cost
Hand of Heironeous - spend a turn undead attempt to have next hit deal uncapped 1d6 additional divine damage for each point of charisma bonus. See if I can get this mixed with Vigilant Halberd (this is plausible since it costs 50k to buy it and there is a bow that does the exact same thing (Larethian protector)
Divine Wrath Enchantment - This is just like the Hand of Heironeous except that it only works on undead (uncapped as well)
Gauntlet of Heartfelt Blows - Dragon 314 - These soft leather gauntlets sport a large, flat gem on the back of each hand. Ringed by steel, these stones slowly shift color as long as the gauntlets are worn. Whenever the bearer becomes involeved in combat, the stones glow brighter and their colors begin to swirl with intense energy, casting a fiery aura around any weapon in the wearer's hands. The wearer's melee attacks cause extra points of fire damage equal to his Charisma bonus (minimum of 1). This bonus damage also applies to touch attacks. The fire does not deal damage to the wearer or anything the wearer carries. Faint Trasmutation; CL 5th; Craft Wonderous Item, burning hands; Price 12,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.
Champion- Pathfinder Advanced Players Guide
This armor property only works for good creatures with the challenge ability (such as cavaliers) or the smite evil ability (such as paladins, half-celestials, and creatures with the celestial creature template). When worn by such a creature that uses a challenge or smite ability, the wearer gains a +2 sacred bonus to AC against attacks from the chosen opponent.
Faint abjuration; CL 5th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, protection from evil or protection from good; Price +1 bonus.
Silver Smite Bracelet - Pathfinder Advanced Players Guide
Aura moderate transmutation; CL 9th Slot wrist; Price 16,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.
This heavy silver bracelet is etched with icons of purity, fidelity, chastity, and honor, and glows with a soft white light whenever its owner prays. The wearer of this bracelet treats her paladin level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of her smite evil class feature.


Spells:
Smite Heretic - gain +2 sacred bonus to attack while smiting. This attack deals 2 points of damage (instead of 1) per paladin level.
Inner Beauty - +4 competence bonus to charisma
Devil's Ego - +4 profane bonus to charisma
Snowsong - +4 morale bonus to Charisma, attack bonus and insight bonus to AC
Righteous Aura - Paladin 4 - +4 sacred bonus to your Charisma Score
Sirine's Grace - Deflection bonus to AC equal to your CHA mod
Favor of the Martyr (My favorite. This spell alone, to me, almost makes going this far into Paladin worth it.)
Sacred Heaven ?
Find the Gap
Fell the Greatest Foe
Knight's Move
Rhino's Rush
- deal x2 damage on a charge
Fire of Entanglement - Advanced Players Guide - Smiting a creature entangles it for 1 round
Fire of Judgement - APG - Next creature you smite takes 1d6 divine fire damage and 1d6 divine fire damage if it attacks a creature other than you
Fire of Vengeance - APG - Next creature you smite must attack you or take 3d8 points of fire damage, only lasts once

Godless_Paladin

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Re: Help with optimized Paladin Smiting.
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2010, 04:32:11 AM »
Advanced Player's Guide?  How come I've never heard of this before?   ???

Edit:  Ah... Pathfinder.

Anyways, great list Ed!  :D
I can attest to the efficacy of smiting as far as damage goes.  The very first time I played a Paladin, way back when I was a newbie to D&D and not trying to optimize at all or anything, I remember being able to easily and regularly exceed 100 damage on a smite by around level 5 (I was using Charging Smite and Rhino Rush and some rather ranom feats).


Edit:  A couple things you didn't list are "Devastating Smite" and "Smite of Sacred Fire" from Forge of War.  1st and 2nd level paladin spells that both increase smite damage.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2010, 12:40:12 PM by Godless_Paladin »

Waazraath

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Re: Help with optimized Paladin Smiting.
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2010, 05:12:14 PM »
Riding boots from the MiC? x4 with spirited charge instead of x3... with rhino rush and valorous lance, that's x6 already.

I recall a ruling btw that you can't use a lance 2handed and still do double damage on a charge though.

Amechra

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Re: Help with optimized Paladin Smiting.
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2010, 06:37:21 PM »
Thanks for the info. I hadn't thought of looking at items.

So, on a unmounted charge, a Paladin could deal 8 damage per level? (Rhino's Rush+Charging Smite+Smite Heretic.)
This is assuming no items, of course.

A silver Smiting bracelet would be nice, simply because it adds 32 more damage to your smite.

I really like the Triadic Knight's Threefold Smite, just because it really adds something to the smite.

And how in the infinite layers of the abyss did I not notice the +uses per day with Sapphire Smite?


[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

My final project for my film independent study course. It could do with a watching and critiquing

Waazraath

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Re: Help with optimized Paladin Smiting.
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2010, 07:24:58 PM »
Unmounted, there's charging smite (x3 smite damage), leap attack, and also divine might is very strong, since it also get multiplied. With a valourous vaulting halberd, rhino rush, etc, it's gets insane pretty easy.

Godless_Paladin

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Re: Help with optimized Paladin Smiting.
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2010, 04:31:28 AM »
Yep.  If there's one thing Paladins don't have trouble doing, it's bucketloads of damage to Evil on a charge.  I remember one of the first characters I ever made was doing well over 100 at level 5, and I wasn't trying to optimize or anything.

bananaphone

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Re: Help with optimized Paladin Smiting.
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2010, 10:19:47 AM »
Found another spell.  Devastating Smite from The Forge of War Eberron supplement. 
1st level Paladin/Cleric/Blackguard spell that doubles the extra damage from your smite.  1 round duration or until discharged.

Unfortunately it's a swift action and Rhino's Rush is probably better overall.  Unless you can get a cleric to cast it on you, or you can get more swift actions.

Arz

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Re: Help with optimized Paladin Smiting.
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2010, 12:39:08 PM »
Add these to your feats list:

Elemental Smite (MoE) - Doesn't need a type or alignment, they just eat acid/cold/electricty/fire. Stack up!
Fiery Smite (Frost) - Hot pepper attack!